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Yes, just like rape accusations. It doesn't matter that you prove it was false afterwards. Edit : well that was a hint to Assange of course. Probably not true

Yes, just like rape accusations. It doesn't matter that you prove it was false afterwards. Edit : well that was a hint to Assange of course. Probably not true in general. So yes, I mean false accusations.

reayn 5y ago
Why is this getting downvoted? It’s very true, just the accusation of committing such a crime (regardless of whether the person was acquitted or not) can easily ruin many facets of a persons’ life.
- hosteur 5y ago
  Julian Assange and Jake Appelbaum being prime examples of this.
  - d33 5y ago
    In case of Appelbaum, are there any solid reasons to believe that the accusations are untrue? For Assange, I think that the victim admitted that the accusation was fabricated, isn't that the case?
    - enriquto 5y ago
      > solid reasons to believe that the accusations are untrue this is not how the concept of accusation works
    - coldtea 5y ago
      Accusations must be proven true, not untrue by the accused. And besides the "victim" in the latter case there was a whole lot of diplomatic pressure and political commotion to set him up, with carrots and sticks and the aid of friendly satellite states.
      - _jal 5y ago
        They must be proven true beyond a reasonable doubt to get a person in a funny robe to put them in jail. Normal humans are not required to prove anything in order to think them.
        coldtea 5y ago
        >Normal humans are not required to prove anything in order to think them. No, but decent human beings are required to not think them true just because they're out there...
        whimsicalism 5y ago
        decent humans can have a lower standard for thinking someone did a crime than the criminal justice system does. this is true whether you believe or disbelieve a rape claim, because if you disbelieve it you typically must believe the corrolary that the victim was committing the crime of lying to the police.
        JohnWhigham 5y ago
        Which is why false rape allegations are so fucking dangerous, and are not nearly as punished as harshly as they should be.
        Griffinsauce 5y ago
        *in the US
        coldtea 5y ago
        I'm not in the US. And even if it didn't hold in my country, it's still a tenet I think is fair. So, I didn't intended invoke what's the legal requirements, but what should be the "right" thing (and what I think should also be legally mandated, even if it's not).
      - xpe 5y ago
        > Accusations must be proven true, not untrue by the accused. I respect this ethical claim; however, there is considerable variation in how legal systems operate in this domain.
brigandish 5y ago
I think you may have attracted less downvotes if the phrasing was changed to "Yes, just like false accusations of rape, it doesn't matter that you prove it was false afterwards." I also think that those downvoting you might've applied the principle of charity and taken the best interpretation of what you've written or at least ask.
- sneak 5y ago
  All criminal accusations, including true ones, should be treated as false until the accused is proven guilty. This is a fundamental tenet of human rights in western, small-l liberal free societies. The fact that this is controversial these days is literally insane to me. The consequences of throwing this fundamental system out the window is that you get the sort of nonsense that happened with Assange, where he was literally never even charged yet completely and thoroughly discredited due to headlines containing the word "rape" when no such thing ever happened. (If you have been misled to believe otherwise, I encourage you to read the direct statements of the women involved.)
  - cma 5y ago
    That's the burden for incarceration, not for making a personal best guess about guilt. Even far below best guess, would you send your kid with a camp councilor that you were 20% sure was guilty of something like that?
    - Sebb767 5y ago
      I probably would be doubtful even at 1%, sure. But there's no denying that this ruins the life of 99 innocent people for every actual criminal.
      - sneak 5y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone%27s_ratio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone%27s_ratio
  - 5y ago
OJFord 5y ago
Vouched, because as I understand the comment, people must not be reading past 'rape' and just gut-flagging with completely the wrong impression.
- account42 5y ago
  > people must not be reading past 'rape' and just gut-flagging with completely the wrong impression. Which is pretty ironic, considering that kind of reaction is exactly what the comment is about.
  - craftinator 5y ago
    Build it and they will come.
thulle 5y ago
Huh? In what way has the accusations against Assange been disproven? Is this one of the "if he didn't jump someone random it isn't rape"-arguments?
dang 5y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28219243 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28219243.
da_big_ghey 5y ago
Indeed yes, for instance statement like "President denies allegations of beating his wife" is damming all by itself.

reayn 5y ago

Why is this getting downvoted? It’s very true, just the accusation of committing such a crime (regardless of whether the person was acquitted or not) can easily ruin many facets of a persons’ life.

hosteur 5y ago
Julian Assange and Jake Appelbaum being prime examples of this.
- d33 5y ago
  In case of Appelbaum, are there any solid reasons to believe that the accusations are untrue? For Assange, I think that the victim admitted that the accusation was fabricated, isn't that the case?
  - enriquto 5y ago
    > solid reasons to believe that the accusations are untrue this is not how the concept of accusation works
  - coldtea 5y ago
    Accusations must be proven true, not untrue by the accused. And besides the "victim" in the latter case there was a whole lot of diplomatic pressure and political commotion to set him up, with carrots and sticks and the aid of friendly satellite states.
    - _jal 5y ago
      They must be proven true beyond a reasonable doubt to get a person in a funny robe to put them in jail. Normal humans are not required to prove anything in order to think them.
      - coldtea 5y ago
        >Normal humans are not required to prove anything in order to think them. No, but decent human beings are required to not think them true just because they're out there...
        whimsicalism 5y ago
        decent humans can have a lower standard for thinking someone did a crime than the criminal justice system does. this is true whether you believe or disbelieve a rape claim, because if you disbelieve it you typically must believe the corrolary that the victim was committing the crime of lying to the police.
      - JohnWhigham 5y ago
        Which is why false rape allegations are so fucking dangerous, and are not nearly as punished as harshly as they should be.
      - Griffinsauce 5y ago
        *in the US
        coldtea 5y ago
        I'm not in the US. And even if it didn't hold in my country, it's still a tenet I think is fair. So, I didn't intended invoke what's the legal requirements, but what should be the "right" thing (and what I think should also be legally mandated, even if it's not).
    - xpe 5y ago
      > Accusations must be proven true, not untrue by the accused. I respect this ethical claim; however, there is considerable variation in how legal systems operate in this domain.

brigandish 5y ago

I think you may have attracted less downvotes if the phrasing was changed to "Yes, just like false accusations of rape, it doesn't matter that you prove it was false afterwards." I also think that those downvoting you might've applied the principle of charity and taken the best interpretation of what you've written or at least ask.

sneak 5y ago
All criminal accusations, including true ones, should be treated as false until the accused is proven guilty. This is a fundamental tenet of human rights in western, small-l liberal free societies. The fact that this is controversial these days is literally insane to me. The consequences of throwing this fundamental system out the window is that you get the sort of nonsense that happened with Assange, where he was literally never even charged yet completely and thoroughly discredited due to headlines containing the word "rape" when no such thing ever happened. (If you have been misled to believe otherwise, I encourage you to read the direct statements of the women involved.)
- cma 5y ago
  That's the burden for incarceration, not for making a personal best guess about guilt. Even far below best guess, would you send your kid with a camp councilor that you were 20% sure was guilty of something like that?
  - Sebb767 5y ago
    I probably would be doubtful even at 1%, sure. But there's no denying that this ruins the life of 99 innocent people for every actual criminal.
    - sneak 5y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone%27s_ratio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone%27s_ratio
- 5y ago

OJFord 5y ago

Vouched, because as I understand the comment, people must not be reading past 'rape' and just gut-flagging with completely the wrong impression.

account42 5y ago
> people must not be reading past 'rape' and just gut-flagging with completely the wrong impression. Which is pretty ironic, considering that kind of reaction is exactly what the comment is about.
- craftinator 5y ago
  Build it and they will come.

thulle 5y ago

Huh? In what way has the accusations against Assange been disproven? Is this one of the "if he didn't jump someone random it isn't rape"-arguments?

dang 5y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28219243 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28219243.

da_big_ghey 5y ago

Indeed yes, for instance statement like "President denies allegations of beating his wife" is damming all by itself.