11 ms·

I don't feel like carrying a little police man in my pocket. Unless CSAM is dead and buried, Apple is dead to me.

by watt 5y ago

Bellamy 5y ago
I already sold my apple stocks and try to leave the lock-in they have on me and my devices.
- moooo99 5y ago
  The tragic but most likely outcome of this debate will be: most people just won't care, they will continue to buy and use Apple hardware as if nothing happened. The average consumer does only hear about the idea of protecting kids and approves this noble goal. Most consumers just do not care about the consequences this can have on their privacy. If people would really care about their privacy, Facebook and Instagram wouldn't be as big as they are, nobody would use facebook messenger for communication and a lot fewer people would use Windows and Android. Despite the warning of privacy advocates, experienced users, etc, people don't seem to care and I doubt this will change with the CSAM debate.
  - mnsc 5y ago
    I could argue that this actually might be different since Facebook and Instagram is opt-in. I think regular users understand that if they willingly upload a picture to a social media site, even if it is in a DM, it _might_ be "hacked", so you can choose not to upload that how-the-fuck-do-i-look-naked-from-behind mirror selfie and be completely confident that no-one will see this (cloud sync off). But now, if the general public will find out that every photo you take, period, is "analyzed", maybe people will start choosing otherwise. I think we will have to see.
    - moooo99 5y ago
      On could argue that this is scanning is also opt in, it requires you to purchase an iPhone. Also, at least according to Apple's provided material, the scanning only affects images which are uploaded to the iCloud, so not every image on the device. However, how long that restriction actually holds once the system is in place is questionable. Also, the risk of abuse by authorities as well the fact that there is no way to monitor the system as a user is a huge part of the problem.
dredmorbius 5y ago
I don't either. But my personal boycotts of mainstream social media, advertising, and weaponised viral clickbait have had absolutely no effect on the general adoption of such practices. Collective action and regulation are what is required here. Parliaments are the effective mechanism. Possibly class-action suits.
pjmlp 5y ago
I usually argue for Apple, but in this case I fully agree with CSAM hate. This isn't Minority Report.
- majewsky 5y ago
  Without arguing the merit of your personal position, "this isn't Minority Report" is a terrible argument. Minority Report is about pre-crime. If someone has CSAM on their phone (and it's not a false positive), they are already actively committing a crime.
  - Santosh83 5y ago
    Ridiculous. So if I use malware to insert CSAM on your iPhone, you're "actively" committing a crime? CSA is a crime, but a person suspected of that must be properly tried through the judicial process. Private entities can also monitor what passes through their premises, but they have no business planting continuous surveillance functionality on your premises without a court warrant. Everyone knows that the worst CSA happen in lawless countries and regions. This is mere pretext to build generalised surveillance infrastructure, or more importantly, normalise the concept of being continuously surveilled by faceless entities. That is the big push society is heading generally towards. It started with CCTV and will end with brain implants, unless society decided enough is enough at some point instead of endless hair-splitting.
    - birdyrooster 5y ago
      We will have to try brain implants at least once to know it’s a bad choice
    - nonbirithm 5y ago
      The law still views willful possession as a crime, otherwise we wouldn't be here. I agree that does open up the possibility that you could frame somebody by planting CSAM on their device. Building mass surveillance features into the device only makes that easier to accomplish than before. But everybody agrees that outlawing the possession of CSAM in general is the right thing to do. This was the case even in a time when the Internet was still in its infancy.
ilogik 5y ago
holy fucking shit, so many idiots in this thread that have no idea what they're talking about. there are plenty of reasons to hate apple. this isn't one of them
- dang 5y ago
  Please make your substantive points without fulminating or calling names, no matter how wrong other people are or you feel they are. Believe me, I know how frustrating it is when nearly everyone on the internet is wrong (or you feel like they are), but comments like this don't help, they just make things worse. If you want to patiently provide correct information, in a form people can actually learn from, that's great. If you don't want to do that, not posting is also an option. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - ilogik 5y ago
    I user to come to HN for interesting discussions. Now it's pretty much all BS. "Apple is looking at my pictures, I'm switching to Android." Nobody stops to think before saying something stupid. it's 1am, and this has been discussed to death. Good night
    - dang 5y ago
      Other people posting BS is a poor reason to post more BS. That only makes things worse. Better options are (1) post something thoughtful and substantive, or (2) don't post.
      - ilogik 5y ago
        The main concern seems to be that people are afraid that other governments can use this technology to have iPhones scan for other types of images. (The "Tank Man" photo is often given as an example) Apple say they won't do that, but it's perfectly healthy to not trust Apple on that aspect. But the fact that they're scanning for CSAM images doesn't change the above in any way. If they back down and stop scanning for CSAM images, that won't have any effect on the above. The governments can still pressure them to add this to their phones. Or even worse. Maybe they have. It's like people disabling exposure notifications because they don't trust Apple. If that's the case, why do you trust the toggle to actually do anything? You either trust Apple that they won't bow down to pressure, or you don't, in which case, buy a phone from a company that you trust more. As someone said on a podcast recently, this isn't a technological problem, it's a government problem. The solution is to vote, not to change your mobile phone.
webmobdev 5y ago
I agree with this sentiment fully. Apple's CSAM is laying the foundation for a surveillance network to spy on its users - (Apple is Preparing to Comply with Indian Govt's New IT Rules - iPhones (and other Apple devices) will soon start deploying built-in surveillance to spy on its users. https://old.reddit.com/r/unitedstatesofindia/comments/oyqjq0/apple_is_preparing_to_comply_with_indian_govts/ https://old.reddit.com/r/unitedstatesofindia/comments/oyqjq0... ).
ByteWelder 5y ago
Even if they end up canning the idea, they have been gaslighting their user base in the past week or so. Their CSAM implementation betrays their earlier statements on privacy, so they are dead to me already. Since a few days, I have finished switching over from a Mac Mini (M1), iPhone and Watch to a desktop (with a proper graphics card, unlike the M1), a phone with LineageOS (and microG, so no/little Google) and an Amazfit GTR 2e watch. Apple is missing out on 3-4k in purchases from me in this year alone.
- intricatedetail 5y ago
  Same here I was going to buy an iPhone and waiting for Mac update, but now I am going buy Xperia and still researching a laptop.
  - ByteWelder 5y ago
    If you're still in doubt about the phone, I recommend OnePlus devices, because they seem to generally work well with the microG variant of LineageOS (https://lineage.microg.org/ https://lineage.microg.org/), which allows you to break free from Google too. Alternatively, Pixel devices also support a wide range of ROMs, including LineageOS. With microG to replace Google Services, you still get push notifications, but without having to log in with a Google account. I've got a OnePlus 8T for 3 days now. The OnePlus 9 sadly isn't yet supported by LineageOS, and the 9 Pro has some downsides that I don't like.
    - intricatedetail 5y ago
      I have a strict rule to not buy anything made in China if I can get an alternative from a different country so my choices are quite limited.
      - foepys 5y ago
        Are there any smartphones definitely made outside of China? I know that Apple has a new factory in India (or similar) but still does some production in China.
idunnoman 5y ago
Agreed. I bought a pine phone when they announced it. Looking forward to leaning into it when it arrives. I know there will be some pain, but I'm getting off the ride here.
max_ 5y ago
The real problem is that their are no real alternatives

I don't feel like carrying a little police man in my pocket. Unless CSAM is dead and buried, Apple is dead to me.

by watt 5y ago

I don't feel like carrying a little police man in my pocket. Unless CSAM is dead and buried, Apple is dead to me.

Bellamy 5y ago

I already sold my apple stocks and try to leave the lock-in they have on me and my devices.

moooo99 5y ago
The tragic but most likely outcome of this debate will be: most people just won't care, they will continue to buy and use Apple hardware as if nothing happened. The average consumer does only hear about the idea of protecting kids and approves this noble goal. Most consumers just do not care about the consequences this can have on their privacy. If people would really care about their privacy, Facebook and Instagram wouldn't be as big as they are, nobody would use facebook messenger for communication and a lot fewer people would use Windows and Android. Despite the warning of privacy advocates, experienced users, etc, people don't seem to care and I doubt this will change with the CSAM debate.
- mnsc 5y ago
  I could argue that this actually might be different since Facebook and Instagram is opt-in. I think regular users understand that if they willingly upload a picture to a social media site, even if it is in a DM, it _might_ be "hacked", so you can choose not to upload that how-the-fuck-do-i-look-naked-from-behind mirror selfie and be completely confident that no-one will see this (cloud sync off). But now, if the general public will find out that every photo you take, period, is "analyzed", maybe people will start choosing otherwise. I think we will have to see.
  - moooo99 5y ago
    On could argue that this is scanning is also opt in, it requires you to purchase an iPhone. Also, at least according to Apple's provided material, the scanning only affects images which are uploaded to the iCloud, so not every image on the device. However, how long that restriction actually holds once the system is in place is questionable. Also, the risk of abuse by authorities as well the fact that there is no way to monitor the system as a user is a huge part of the problem.

dredmorbius 5y ago

I don't either. But my personal boycotts of mainstream social media, advertising, and weaponised viral clickbait have had absolutely no effect on the general adoption of such practices. Collective action and regulation are what is required here. Parliaments are the effective mechanism. Possibly class-action suits.

pjmlp 5y ago

I usually argue for Apple, but in this case I fully agree with CSAM hate. This isn't Minority Report.

majewsky 5y ago
Without arguing the merit of your personal position, "this isn't Minority Report" is a terrible argument. Minority Report is about pre-crime. If someone has CSAM on their phone (and it's not a false positive), they are already actively committing a crime.
- Santosh83 5y ago
  Ridiculous. So if I use malware to insert CSAM on your iPhone, you're "actively" committing a crime? CSA is a crime, but a person suspected of that must be properly tried through the judicial process. Private entities can also monitor what passes through their premises, but they have no business planting continuous surveillance functionality on your premises without a court warrant. Everyone knows that the worst CSA happen in lawless countries and regions. This is mere pretext to build generalised surveillance infrastructure, or more importantly, normalise the concept of being continuously surveilled by faceless entities. That is the big push society is heading generally towards. It started with CCTV and will end with brain implants, unless society decided enough is enough at some point instead of endless hair-splitting.
  - birdyrooster 5y ago
    We will have to try brain implants at least once to know it’s a bad choice
  - nonbirithm 5y ago
    The law still views willful possession as a crime, otherwise we wouldn't be here. I agree that does open up the possibility that you could frame somebody by planting CSAM on their device. Building mass surveillance features into the device only makes that easier to accomplish than before. But everybody agrees that outlawing the possession of CSAM in general is the right thing to do. This was the case even in a time when the Internet was still in its infancy.

ilogik 5y ago

holy fucking shit, so many idiots in this thread that have no idea what they're talking about. there are plenty of reasons to hate apple. this isn't one of them

dang 5y ago
Please make your substantive points without fulminating or calling names, no matter how wrong other people are or you feel they are. Believe me, I know how frustrating it is when nearly everyone on the internet is wrong (or you feel like they are), but comments like this don't help, they just make things worse. If you want to patiently provide correct information, in a form people can actually learn from, that's great. If you don't want to do that, not posting is also an option. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- ilogik 5y ago
  I user to come to HN for interesting discussions. Now it's pretty much all BS. "Apple is looking at my pictures, I'm switching to Android." Nobody stops to think before saying something stupid. it's 1am, and this has been discussed to death. Good night
  - dang 5y ago
    Other people posting BS is a poor reason to post more BS. That only makes things worse. Better options are (1) post something thoughtful and substantive, or (2) don't post.
    - ilogik 5y ago
      The main concern seems to be that people are afraid that other governments can use this technology to have iPhones scan for other types of images. (The "Tank Man" photo is often given as an example) Apple say they won't do that, but it's perfectly healthy to not trust Apple on that aspect. But the fact that they're scanning for CSAM images doesn't change the above in any way. If they back down and stop scanning for CSAM images, that won't have any effect on the above. The governments can still pressure them to add this to their phones. Or even worse. Maybe they have. It's like people disabling exposure notifications because they don't trust Apple. If that's the case, why do you trust the toggle to actually do anything? You either trust Apple that they won't bow down to pressure, or you don't, in which case, buy a phone from a company that you trust more. As someone said on a podcast recently, this isn't a technological problem, it's a government problem. The solution is to vote, not to change your mobile phone.

webmobdev 5y ago

I agree with this sentiment fully. Apple's CSAM is laying the foundation for a surveillance network to spy on its users - (Apple is Preparing to Comply with Indian Govt's New IT Rules - iPhones (and other Apple devices) will soon start deploying built-in surveillance to spy on its users. https://old.reddit.com/r/unitedstatesofindia/comments/oyqjq0/apple_is_preparing_to_comply_with_indian_govts/ https://old.reddit.com/r/unitedstatesofindia/comments/oyqjq0... ).

ByteWelder 5y ago

Even if they end up canning the idea, they have been gaslighting their user base in the past week or so. Their CSAM implementation betrays their earlier statements on privacy, so they are dead to me already. Since a few days, I have finished switching over from a Mac Mini (M1), iPhone and Watch to a desktop (with a proper graphics card, unlike the M1), a phone with LineageOS (and microG, so no/little Google) and an Amazfit GTR 2e watch. Apple is missing out on 3-4k in purchases from me in this year alone.

intricatedetail 5y ago
Same here I was going to buy an iPhone and waiting for Mac update, but now I am going buy Xperia and still researching a laptop.
- ByteWelder 5y ago
  If you're still in doubt about the phone, I recommend OnePlus devices, because they seem to generally work well with the microG variant of LineageOS (https://lineage.microg.org/ https://lineage.microg.org/), which allows you to break free from Google too. Alternatively, Pixel devices also support a wide range of ROMs, including LineageOS. With microG to replace Google Services, you still get push notifications, but without having to log in with a Google account. I've got a OnePlus 8T for 3 days now. The OnePlus 9 sadly isn't yet supported by LineageOS, and the 9 Pro has some downsides that I don't like.
  - intricatedetail 5y ago
    I have a strict rule to not buy anything made in China if I can get an alternative from a different country so my choices are quite limited.
    - foepys 5y ago
      Are there any smartphones definitely made outside of China? I know that Apple has a new factory in India (or similar) but still does some production in China.

idunnoman 5y ago

Agreed. I bought a pine phone when they announced it. Looking forward to leaning into it when it arrives. I know there will be some pain, but I'm getting off the ride here.

max_ 5y ago

The real problem is that their are no real alternatives