5 ms·

I’m from in the US and am naïve, but what is bizarre about that system?

MomoXenosaga 5y ago
The US is actually bizarre, anyone born in the US automatically gets US nationality. This leads to amusing birth tourism. Iirc it is the only country that does this.
- wodenokoto 5y ago
  It’s called Jus Soli and while not the most common thing, it isn’t exactly special to the US. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli
  - barry-cotter 5y ago
    The only other country with such liberal application of jus soli is New Zealand. In no other country I'm aware of can you show up, give birth and they will definitely give the child a passport unless the mother or father is a diplomat.
    - yardie 5y ago
      It is widely practiced in the Western Hemisphere. Which is why you can be Mexican or Panamanian and run for president of the US.
      - xjlin0 5y ago
        I thought US presidents need to be born on US?
        dangerbird2 5y ago
        No, they just have to be US citizens at birth: either born on American soil or to U.S. parents abroad. This is why Ted Cruz and George Romney could run for president despite being born outside the U.S.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - lizknope 5y ago
        John McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone which was a US territory when he was born but was part of Panama by the time he ran for president.
    - throw0101a 5y ago
      > In no other country I'm aware of can you show up, give birth and they will definitely give the child a passport unless the mother or father is a diplomat. If you are not aware, then you haven't looked very hard: > Subsection 3(2) of the Citizenship Act states that Canadian citizenship by birth in Canada – including Canadian airspace and territorial waters – is granted to a child born in Canada even if neither parent was a Canadian citizen or permanent resident except if either parent was a diplomat, in service to a diplomat, or employed by an international agency of equal status to a diplomat. However, if neither parent was a diplomat, the nationality or immigration status of the parents do not matter.[28] * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli#Continental_North_America https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli#Continental_North_Ame...
    - Hallucinaut 5y ago
      According to that Wikipedia link (and my own NZ knowledge) that is quite incorrect on NZ being either the only other country or even as liberal. Essentially the same as Australia and less permissive than dozens of other major, larger nations.
- Zababa 5y ago
  I think it's the same in France, we call it the "droit du sol".
  - Ichthypresbyter 5y ago
    Not quite. Children born in France only get French citizenship from birth if at least one parent either is a French citizen or was born in France. Otherwise, there are various processes for them to acquire citizenship later in life if they spend enough of their childhood in France. In contrast, almost any child born in the US, regardless of the nationality or immigration status of the parents, is a citizen automatically from birth. The only exceptions are children of foreign diplomats and (hypothetically) children of members of an invading army. Even if the parents are visiting as tourists and the child leaves two weeks after birth and never returns, it's still a citizen. British law is somewhere in between the two- a child born in the UK is a citizen if at least one parent has "settled status" (in other words is a citizen, permanent resident, or otherwise has an unrestricted right to live in the UK).
    - Zababa 5y ago
      Thanks for the correction!
    - bbarnett 5y ago
      You've just sparked a new form of gene propagation. Imagine being a sperm donor, but in dozens of countries. Now your progeny will have a large range of citizenship, and locations, from which they may thrive during disaster. Better than sailors and ports, for one can travel, experience sunny and interesting destinations, make a deposit, and... success! I see a new startup, which combines cruise ships and pre-arranged donation instructions / locations. Looking for a co-founder...
      - FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
        Wouldn't it be cheaper to ship the semen? Less entertaining for the donor, of course. Though, if the goal is to maximize the donor's entertainment, I don't see why we're using artificial insemination. ... Have you ever seen a stud bull get shipped to a farm? ... I feel this could end very badly. Like, Form AirBnB. ...many years later... All real estate is unaffordable. Like, there'd be throngs of George Clooneys and Barack Obamas with weird recessive diseases. And a bizarre fan-club in China of Vladimir Putin babymommas. ... Didn't Stephen Colbert have a product like this? (I swear, if it had been real, some people would have bought and used it.) ... We'd recreate that unexplained prehistoric situation, preserved in the genetic record, where a population bottleneck shows up only on the Y chromosome.
- lizknope 5y ago
  I was born in the US and I am the child of immigrants who came here for college 55 years ago. I think being born in the US and automatically becoming a citizen is one of the greatest things about this country.
- neither_color 5y ago
  It's not unique to the US at all. Almost all the countries in North and South America are like this. If you want to claim it's wrong that's another debate but everyone in the Americas came from somewhere else, borders are an ephemeral concept and what's bizarre to me is how strict Europe is with jus sanguinis when its borders have changed so many times in the last century and in the centuries leading up to it. I do believe in border controls and vetting immigrants in the sense of "how many people can fit on this life raft without sinking it, what is the max take-off weight of this airplane" but really everyone I know, even on the right, at some level feel there's an inherent unfairness to where you happen to spawn in this life. Speaking of bizarre, why are there zero barriers for a Finnish person to move to Portugal, but major barriers for a Brazilian, culturally more proximate due Portuguese colonialism to do the same? Why are there zero barriers for a Greek or Estonian to live and work in Spain but tough immigration rules for the spawn of their 15+ latin american colonies, who speak the same language and have the same religion?
  - BurningFrog 5y ago
    Modern states are to a large part insurance providers. Citizens pay premiums and get health care, pensions, disability care etc. Insurance works when a large group of people pay premiums to protect against some condition that has not happened yet. If you could sign up for a fire insurance once your house is burning, the system would collapse. For similar reasons, modern states need to keep poor people out since, on average, they will be a large net burden on their welfare systems.
  - FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
    > what's bizarre to me is how strict Europe is with jus sanguinis Asian countries are also notoriously hard to get citizenship in. > Why are there zero barriers for a Greek or Estonian to live and work in Spain but tough immigration rules for the spawn of their 15+ latin american colonies, who speak the same language and have the same religion? Could be worth exploring for Spain and Portugal. There's a "transitive property" issue, however. It'd be hard to do this without, effectively, adding the former Spanish and Portuguese empires to the EU. This would also run into the Monroe Doctrine, if you carried it far enough. But it is an interesting idea.

The US is actually bizarre, anyone born in the US automatically gets US nationality. This leads to amusing birth tourism. Iirc it is the only country that does this.

wodenokoto 5y ago
It’s called Jus Soli and while not the most common thing, it isn’t exactly special to the US. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli
- barry-cotter 5y ago
  The only other country with such liberal application of jus soli is New Zealand. In no other country I'm aware of can you show up, give birth and they will definitely give the child a passport unless the mother or father is a diplomat.
  - yardie 5y ago
    It is widely practiced in the Western Hemisphere. Which is why you can be Mexican or Panamanian and run for president of the US.
    - xjlin0 5y ago
      I thought US presidents need to be born on US?
      - dangerbird2 5y ago
        No, they just have to be US citizens at birth: either born on American soil or to U.S. parents abroad. This is why Ted Cruz and George Romney could run for president despite being born outside the U.S.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
    - lizknope 5y ago
      John McCain was born in the Panama Canal Zone which was a US territory when he was born but was part of Panama by the time he ran for president.
  - throw0101a 5y ago
    > In no other country I'm aware of can you show up, give birth and they will definitely give the child a passport unless the mother or father is a diplomat. If you are not aware, then you haven't looked very hard: > Subsection 3(2) of the Citizenship Act states that Canadian citizenship by birth in Canada – including Canadian airspace and territorial waters – is granted to a child born in Canada even if neither parent was a Canadian citizen or permanent resident except if either parent was a diplomat, in service to a diplomat, or employed by an international agency of equal status to a diplomat. However, if neither parent was a diplomat, the nationality or immigration status of the parents do not matter.[28] * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli#Continental_North_America https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli#Continental_North_Ame...
  - Hallucinaut 5y ago
    According to that Wikipedia link (and my own NZ knowledge) that is quite incorrect on NZ being either the only other country or even as liberal. Essentially the same as Australia and less permissive than dozens of other major, larger nations.
Zababa 5y ago
I think it's the same in France, we call it the "droit du sol".
- Ichthypresbyter 5y ago
  Not quite. Children born in France only get French citizenship from birth if at least one parent either is a French citizen or was born in France. Otherwise, there are various processes for them to acquire citizenship later in life if they spend enough of their childhood in France. In contrast, almost any child born in the US, regardless of the nationality or immigration status of the parents, is a citizen automatically from birth. The only exceptions are children of foreign diplomats and (hypothetically) children of members of an invading army. Even if the parents are visiting as tourists and the child leaves two weeks after birth and never returns, it's still a citizen. British law is somewhere in between the two- a child born in the UK is a citizen if at least one parent has "settled status" (in other words is a citizen, permanent resident, or otherwise has an unrestricted right to live in the UK).
  - Zababa 5y ago
    Thanks for the correction!
  - bbarnett 5y ago
    You've just sparked a new form of gene propagation. Imagine being a sperm donor, but in dozens of countries. Now your progeny will have a large range of citizenship, and locations, from which they may thrive during disaster. Better than sailors and ports, for one can travel, experience sunny and interesting destinations, make a deposit, and... success! I see a new startup, which combines cruise ships and pre-arranged donation instructions / locations. Looking for a co-founder...
    - FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
      Wouldn't it be cheaper to ship the semen? Less entertaining for the donor, of course. Though, if the goal is to maximize the donor's entertainment, I don't see why we're using artificial insemination. ... Have you ever seen a stud bull get shipped to a farm? ... I feel this could end very badly. Like, Form AirBnB. ...many years later... All real estate is unaffordable. Like, there'd be throngs of George Clooneys and Barack Obamas with weird recessive diseases. And a bizarre fan-club in China of Vladimir Putin babymommas. ... Didn't Stephen Colbert have a product like this? (I swear, if it had been real, some people would have bought and used it.) ... We'd recreate that unexplained prehistoric situation, preserved in the genetic record, where a population bottleneck shows up only on the Y chromosome.
lizknope 5y ago
I was born in the US and I am the child of immigrants who came here for college 55 years ago. I think being born in the US and automatically becoming a citizen is one of the greatest things about this country.
neither_color 5y ago
It's not unique to the US at all. Almost all the countries in North and South America are like this. If you want to claim it's wrong that's another debate but everyone in the Americas came from somewhere else, borders are an ephemeral concept and what's bizarre to me is how strict Europe is with jus sanguinis when its borders have changed so many times in the last century and in the centuries leading up to it. I do believe in border controls and vetting immigrants in the sense of "how many people can fit on this life raft without sinking it, what is the max take-off weight of this airplane" but really everyone I know, even on the right, at some level feel there's an inherent unfairness to where you happen to spawn in this life. Speaking of bizarre, why are there zero barriers for a Finnish person to move to Portugal, but major barriers for a Brazilian, culturally more proximate due Portuguese colonialism to do the same? Why are there zero barriers for a Greek or Estonian to live and work in Spain but tough immigration rules for the spawn of their 15+ latin american colonies, who speak the same language and have the same religion?
- BurningFrog 5y ago
  Modern states are to a large part insurance providers. Citizens pay premiums and get health care, pensions, disability care etc. Insurance works when a large group of people pay premiums to protect against some condition that has not happened yet. If you could sign up for a fire insurance once your house is burning, the system would collapse. For similar reasons, modern states need to keep poor people out since, on average, they will be a large net burden on their welfare systems.
- FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
  > what's bizarre to me is how strict Europe is with jus sanguinis Asian countries are also notoriously hard to get citizenship in. > Why are there zero barriers for a Greek or Estonian to live and work in Spain but tough immigration rules for the spawn of their 15+ latin american colonies, who speak the same language and have the same religion? Could be worth exploring for Spain and Portugal. There's a "transitive property" issue, however. It'd be hard to do this without, effectively, adding the former Spanish and Portuguese empires to the EU. This would also run into the Monroe Doctrine, if you carried it far enough. But it is an interesting idea.