2 ms·

It's often suggested to increase fuel taxes to force people to drive less. I guess you were spending around $400 per month on fuel for this commute. Would you h

by fy20 5y ago

It's often suggested to increase fuel taxes to force people to drive less. I guess you were spending around $400 per month on fuel for this commute. Would you have done anything different if fuel costs were double that? (And let's assume getting a more efficient car wasn't an option)

vladvasiliu 5y ago
But this just puts a strain on people in these situations, and they don't need it. In Paris, there are more and more "anti-car" measures which are currently in effect, but no alternatives. Yes, they're building and extending a bunch of metro lines, which I think is great, but almost none of those are currently operational. I think that there may be people who will absolutely choose to drive if at all possible, but I believe they are a minority, so maybe let's not concern ourselves with them at first. But I also believe that most people will take the sensible option, and if transit is cheaper and faster (or at least not terribly slower and inconvenient) they will choose this option. My point is that all these policies amount to a lot of sticks and no carrots. If I lived where my parents live, my commute would be close to two hours each way, if (and that's a big if) none of the several trains I'd have to take had any issue. Commuting by car would be around one hour each way. It would cost more because of the taxes on gas, but would allow me both some flexibility on coming and going AND let me get back two hours per day. And they live in a town with a direct to Paris suburban train stop. Many, many towns in the suburbs don't even have a train stop at all, so you'd have to catch a bus first to then catch a slower train. Now here's the kicker: most people I know, working in IT, are barely able to afford a livable apartment to raise a one-kid family. Hell, most end up living outside of Paris. So I'm not sure how much you can reasonably expect the wages for low-earners to rise so that they could afford to live in Paris instead of driving there. My point is that rising gas taxes and, generally, acting directly on the driving itself won't solve the issue, because people driving is itself a consequence of the underlying issue. I don't know what the solution is, but personally I'd rather look at improving the transit network and incentivizing companies to open offices elsewhere, to ease the density-related problems, such as overcrowded metros. Maybe then people would stop driving around in Paris, because they would have no reason to.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- sofixa 5y ago
  > most people I know, working in IT, are barely able to afford a livable apartment to raise a one-kid family. Hell, most end up living outside of Paris I really don't see this as a problem. Paris proper has boundaries and is space constrained, making it extremely expensive. Living in the suburbs in the same metropolitan area is perfectly fine. And there are plenty of cities there with good transport links to Paris itself. > And they live in a town with a direct to Paris suburban train stop. Many, many towns in the suburbs don't even have a train stop at all, so you'd have to catch a bus first to then catch a slower train. "Many, many" is an exaggeration. Most cities in Ile de France have a train station, and a lot of those that don't and are dense are getting trams, metros lines. Those that do remain affordable, as long as you aren't immediately outside of Paris or westwards. Driving in Paris is unsustainable. Driving daily 2h because you live in a house in a village of 1k people is unsustainable. I have colleagues living in small villages that take their car to a train station, and take the train to Paris. It's a decent tradeoff for the people who live in the middle of nowhere. Discouraging it to the maximum possible
gravypod 5y ago
I would have probably either: 1. dropped out and not gotten a job 2. Stayed in an abusive and unsafe environment and ended up on the streets in a few months when my mom was evicted My first "apartment" was 600/month (1 room in someone else's apartment) and if took me months to save up for to be able to do it with a buffer if I lost my job mainly because how much I was spending on college and gas and misc life stuff. I have photos because I was so excited to get my "own" place I showed my boss. I should dig them up sometime.

by fy20 5y ago

vladvasiliu 5y ago

But this just puts a strain on people in these situations, and they don't need it. In Paris, there are more and more "anti-car" measures which are currently in effect, but no alternatives. Yes, they're building and extending a bunch of metro lines, which I think is great, but almost none of those are currently operational. I think that there may be people who will absolutely choose to drive if at all possible, but I believe they are a minority, so maybe let's not concern ourselves with them at first. But I also believe that most people will take the sensible option, and if transit is cheaper and faster (or at least not terribly slower and inconvenient) they will choose this option. My point is that all these policies amount to a lot of sticks and no carrots. If I lived where my parents live, my commute would be close to two hours each way, if (and that's a big if) none of the several trains I'd have to take had any issue. Commuting by car would be around one hour each way. It would cost more because of the taxes on gas, but would allow me both some flexibility on coming and going AND let me get back two hours per day. And they live in a town with a direct to Paris suburban train stop. Many, many towns in the suburbs don't even have a train stop at all, so you'd have to catch a bus first to then catch a slower train. Now here's the kicker: most people I know, working in IT, are barely able to afford a livable apartment to raise a one-kid family. Hell, most end up living outside of Paris. So I'm not sure how much you can reasonably expect the wages for low-earners to rise so that they could afford to live in Paris instead of driving there. My point is that rising gas taxes and, generally, acting directly on the driving itself won't solve the issue, because people driving is itself a consequence of the underlying issue. I don't know what the solution is, but personally I'd rather look at improving the transit network and incentivizing companies to open offices elsewhere, to ease the density-related problems, such as overcrowded metros. Maybe then people would stop driving around in Paris, because they would have no reason to.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
sofixa 5y ago
> most people I know, working in IT, are barely able to afford a livable apartment to raise a one-kid family. Hell, most end up living outside of Paris I really don't see this as a problem. Paris proper has boundaries and is space constrained, making it extremely expensive. Living in the suburbs in the same metropolitan area is perfectly fine. And there are plenty of cities there with good transport links to Paris itself. > And they live in a town with a direct to Paris suburban train stop. Many, many towns in the suburbs don't even have a train stop at all, so you'd have to catch a bus first to then catch a slower train. "Many, many" is an exaggeration. Most cities in Ile de France have a train station, and a lot of those that don't and are dense are getting trams, metros lines. Those that do remain affordable, as long as you aren't immediately outside of Paris or westwards. Driving in Paris is unsustainable. Driving daily 2h because you live in a house in a village of 1k people is unsustainable. I have colleagues living in small villages that take their car to a train station, and take the train to Paris. It's a decent tradeoff for the people who live in the middle of nowhere. Discouraging it to the maximum possible

gravypod 5y ago

I would have probably either: 1. dropped out and not gotten a job 2. Stayed in an abusive and unsafe environment and ended up on the streets in a few months when my mom was evicted My first "apartment" was 600/month (1 room in someone else's apartment) and if took me months to save up for to be able to do it with a buffer if I lost my job mainly because how much I was spending on college and gas and misc life stuff. I have photos because I was so excited to get my "own" place I showed my boss. I should dig them up sometime.