7 ms·

Deleting no longer prompts on Android

79 points by encryptluks2 5y ago

corndoge 5y ago
Featuring a guest appearance from the unpaid Product Apologist. Who I'm sure is just jaded from helping users for too long after they started doing it to be helpful. Tech really is something.
- cyral 5y ago
  It really blows my mind that these Google forums are entirely staffed by unpaid people who are deemed "experts" (with no inside knowledge of how the service in question is developed or what the plans for it are). Why do people volunteer to help a TRILLION dollar corporation with their customer support?
  - LeoPanthera 5y ago
    I guess because they feel like they are helping out users, not helping out Google. Some people want to help other people.
    - cyral 5y ago
      Except Diamond Product Expert Bluescat apparently
    - chris_wot 5y ago
      I would hardly call the person who responded "helpful".
      - LeoPanthera 5y ago
        One person does not disprove the rule.
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    The desire to be helpful is rooted in human biology. https://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/01/science/01human.html https://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/01/science/01human.html
    - willcipriano 5y ago
      This isn't a desire to be helpful. A desire to feel important maybe? Is Bluescat lashing out because they can't find a good answer to the question and process no real power to fix it? Who knows, but the desire there isn't to be helpful.
  - TMWNN 5y ago
    >It really blows my mind that these Google forums are entirely staffed by unpaid people who are deemed "experts" (with no inside knowledge of how the service in question is developed or what the plans for it are). I've dealt with Bluescat before: https://np.reddit.com/r/Googlevoice/comments/hbatkp/whats_the_magic_url_to_tell_google_voice_to_send/ https://np.reddit.com/r/Googlevoice/comments/hbatkp/whats_th... Note how BluesCatReddit warns me to not use the feature I am asking about because it is surely a secret method that non-experts like me aren't supposed to know about, then when I point out that Google itself documents the feature, desperately tries to maintain his sage position above non-experts like me by generously deigning to tutor me on how to use said feature (which, again, he had no idea existed until I pointed it out to him). Absolutely nothing to do with actually answering my question, of course.
  - meowster 5y ago
    It's possible that some people think Google will hire them this way. They probably hear about the great salaries and benefits that programmers get, and think they can get it too if they just try hard enough.
usui 5y ago
> This is like complaining that you drove down the road, and there was a freeway on-ramp next to an off-ramp, and the off-ramp has a sign that says "do not enter", and you're mad that the on-ramp and the off-ramp are next to each other, because you might try to get on the off-ramp. > I have to say, this is the most ridiculous complaint I've seen this month. Users complained for several years that Google Voice didn't have the ability to delete multiple text messages. Now it does. If you can't cope with figuring out the difference between a trash can icon and a file folder icon, then don't use Google Voice. The insidiousness of assuming user bases as monolithic entities has been getting worse. Instead of just assuming that a mythical monolith exists as a representation of users, maybe it's possible that many different types of users exist and that at least being able to add configurability would solve 90% of the issues that occur when groups of people with different opinions use the same app? The recommended answer is not a productive discussion maker. You shouldn't hand-wave valid UI/UX design concerns due to wishes that another part of the user base clamored for. And besides, what if I tap the button by accident? Why was it a good idea to put the "Delete All" button next to the "Archive All" button? And before I forget, I've actually mistaken two different exit ramps before, so the first paragraph is uncalled for.
- tshaddox 5y ago
  I don’t really see configurability being a reasonable solution to this problem for any group of people. Letting people configure the order in which the delete and archive buttons appear, or whether each button shows a confirm dialog first, isn’t going to address anyone’s problem of having accidentally deleted things permanently.
- silisili 5y ago
  100% agreed. I am a person with very shaky hands when doing something. It may be 'essential tremors', but I've never bothered to get a diagnosis. It's come and gone since I was a kid. I loathe typing on a phone, or worse, clicking some tiny thing on the phone. The act of tensing my thumb and moving it makes it go haywire at times. I'm not looking for sympathy, at all. But realize at least -some- of us users will misclick things often, especially on mobile.
tdeck 5y ago
It's sad that Google has chosen the support strategy of having these derelict forums staffed only by volunteers. Even sadder that this is probably the closest thing OP will get to a professional response from Google.
wwweston 5y ago
I love the idea of Google Voice, but the actual execution has me looking for an alternative to migrate to, especially since they stopped message forwarding a week or two back. Would love suggestions for feature+ compatible alternatives — and would actually prefer paid over free, since that means the incentives are better lined up.
- estromlund 5y ago
  (Warning: shameless self promotion) I’ve run an app the last 8 years which is the same idea but lets you have multiple numbers, for as long or short as you want. Calling, texting, voicemail (with custom greeting), outgoing caller ID, etc. There are unlimited plans for $9.99/mo or pay-as-you go plans starting at $2.99/mo which include a few minutes and texts each month but are primarily credit-based (about $0.02 per outgoing text or answered call minute; incoming texts are free) Happy to answer any questions! Link: https://www.unlistedmobile.com https://www.unlistedmobile.com
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- dvtrn 5y ago
  I’ve been using Telnyx for a while for burner numbers for a couple of ‘burner’ numbers. Outside of the phone number itself (or the cost to port), it’s pretty much pay for what you use. Does require some setup once you have a number, but as long as you’ve got a SIP capable device (or desktop/mobile app like Bria) you can use the number on it.
- nfoz 5y ago
  Check out https://jmp.chat/ https://jmp.chat/
  - encryptluks2 5y ago
    Thanks... I've tried it before. I was pretty impressed, although I couldn't find any great XMPP clients on Linux at the time, there were a few promising ones. I think I'll give it another try. I love the idea of being able to save chat history locally and backup local chat history with regular backups.
cupcake-unicorn 5y ago
I've used Google voice for some time but I feel that they have abandoned the product for a while and will be giving it the axe like they did with Hangouts and their other chats. It really sucked when Hangouts shut down and now I couldn't get the chats within the new Google Chat app. I miss the old Xmpp Gchat honestly! Speaking of XMPP I'm in the process of switching over to https://jmp.chat/ https://jmp.chat/ for a VOIP text solution which has worked great so far. If you own the Xmpp server you have even more control.
- bubblethink 5y ago
  xmpp gchat still works. It was supposed to be deprecated long ago, but it still works (maybe with limitations). I use it on my phone with conversations.im. You'll need an app password to log in.
  - cupcake-unicorn 5y ago
    Yeah but I couldn't use it for the Voice Texts/hangouts stuff so it was limited for me :/
- beeboop 5y ago
  I've used Google Voice from before it was even Google Voice, it was called Grand Central or something and they gave me free business cards with my number on it. GV has always been a red headed step child product. It doesn't work natively with any android smart watch, its integrations into other products is sketchy and flaky (like there used to be a google voice widget for gmail). Features have been slowly deteriorating for years. The only reason I still use it as my main number is that it's easy to text in my browser. I don't know if that's easy to do with carrier websites but I've certainly never seen them advertise it. It's 2021 and I still can't get video texts on GV. Well, I can, but they're literally less than 240p resolution. To the point it's difficult to even tell what's happening. And before potato quality, it was flat out not an option for like a decade when every single phone supported it. Group texting also seems to not really work, and the "reactions" people on iphones use aren't supported.
chris_wot 5y ago
Wow, the guy who responded is a total douche. I can see it would be easy to tap the wrong button on a phone. Where do these people crawl out of the woodwork from?
silisili 5y ago
Bluescat response is the posterboy for not letting community support reign supreme. My goodness.
- tyingq 5y ago
  I browsed some of his other responses, and he seems to be under some delusion that he works for Google. I guess he sort of does, since he's the only support many customers will encounter.
  - techrat 5y ago
    The worst part is that he's allowed to recommend his own answers above others, inflating his own stats... regardless of how much of an unhelpful arse he is in his own replies.
    - TMWNN 5y ago
      Yes, that flabbergasted me the most in this whole affair. Shouldn't we assume that he achieved his Diamond status by steadily upvoting himself all this time? Good god.
  - silisili 5y ago
    They are a diamond platinum supreme member, doesn't that count for something? Sadly, he/she's paid as much as the asker. In seriousness, I recognize that name from past Google searches. They've been doing 'support' for a long time.
- t-writescode 5y ago
  If he reads HackerNews and is looking at our responses, I hope he sees mine. He needs a vacation. Right now. Like, no computer, somewhere elsewhere. That’s the kind of response I’ve seen at work when covid is getting everyone angry and hateful. There’s nothing helpful in it, it’s attacking, and frankly, he needs to go read it later and think about what he’s said from another person’s perspective, especially a person with any sort of disability. He claims “30 years IT experience” and yet seems to have never worked with a 70 year old and a computer. Even their mouse movement is shaken.
TMWNN 5y ago
I've dealt with Bluescat before: https://np.reddit.com/r/Googlevoice/comments/hbatkp/whats_the_magic_url_to_tell_google_voice_to_send/ https://np.reddit.com/r/Googlevoice/comments/hbatkp/whats_th... Note how BluesCatReddit warns me to not use the feature I am asking about because it is surely a secret method that non-experts like me aren't supposed to know about, then when I point out that Google itself documents the feature, desperately tries to maintain his sage position above non-experts like me by generously deigning to tutor me on how to use said feature (which, again, he had no idea existed until I pointed it out to him). Absolutely nothing to do with actually answering my question, of course.
willcipriano 5y ago
I am about as backend focused as they come and even I know a single pixel left or right should never be the difference between saving your mothers last voicemail and losing it forever.
HKH2 5y ago
Google Sheets has 'insert a row below' just above 'delete row' in the context menu; I am very careful when using a touchpad. Another one that is more of an unfortunate clash: Ctrl-0 is the default for resetting the zoom in Firefox but in Sheets it will delete columns. Being able to disable functionality or require a dialog box would fix both those issues.
- justinpombrio 5y ago
  One major difference though: it sounds like this Google Voice trash button is permanent, whereas Sheets has an undo button. I'm not a designer, but isn't this like design 101? Permanent action -> dialog box required.
  - HKH2 5y ago
    If you notice the rows/columns have disappeared then you can undo the action.
    - oliwarner 5y ago
      Isn't the lack of newly-inserted row a big enough clue? Or the change in insertion point when you go to insert again? How many levels of error do you want to cover? TFA's point is there is zero chance for recompense here. If you're not going to have Trash or Undo functionality, you need to prompt.
      - HKH2 5y ago
        You can't always guarantee your focus is 100%, no matter how much you'd like it to be. I get TFA's point is about irreversibility, but having those buttons close to each other is part of the problem.
- pgn674 5y ago
  At least in both situations there Sheets allows you to undo the delete, so the closeness to other commands isn't so lethal. I've got no UX or UI training, but I gotta imagine that it'd be a basic rule that delete actions must always include a confirmation request or an undo option. In Voice, the lack of both confirmation and undo is just ludicrous.
perihelions 5y ago
What pathology of Google internal culture is responsible for this support site? Don't blame the human that you're all piling on; blame the process that allowed this abusive response to be a pinned (self-pinned!) top answer with a 0:105 "helpful?" vote ratio.
- godelski 5y ago
  What I don't understand is that if you believe your users are idiots doesn't that mean you need to design a product that an idiot can use? Berating users is just ridiculous and does nothing but harm the product. I am seriously pissed off at this culture of "we know best." It is a disconnect from the userbase and we've constantly seen it lead to the product being overtaken by a company that doesn't follow this principle.
- macintux 5y ago
  I’m fine blaming both. A poor platform doesn’t excuse toxic behavior.
- squeaky-clean 5y ago
  Like every other part of Google support, there aren't any google employees actually involved. "Diamond Product Expert" is just a tag a community user can earn by getting enough points.
  - godelski 5y ago
    I'm not sure how that makes things better. In fact, I think it makes things worse. You're letting random people that are self described experts? That's a great way to create a toxic environment. Every single place I've gone to that has a "community support" that actual employees rarely or never visit has been extremely toxic and unhelpful. They create feedback loops for this toxicity and "in crowd."
  - JasonFruit 5y ago
    That, to me, is precisely the problem.
- 5y ago
peanut_worm 5y ago
Wow the guy who wrote the reply is an outright psycho

79 points by encryptluks2 5y ago

Featuring a guest appearance from the unpaid Product Apologist. Who I'm sure is just jaded from helping users for too long after they started doing it to be helpful. Tech really is something.

cyral 5y ago
It really blows my mind that these Google forums are entirely staffed by unpaid people who are deemed "experts" (with no inside knowledge of how the service in question is developed or what the plans for it are). Why do people volunteer to help a TRILLION dollar corporation with their customer support?
- LeoPanthera 5y ago
  I guess because they feel like they are helping out users, not helping out Google. Some people want to help other people.
  - cyral 5y ago
    Except Diamond Product Expert Bluescat apparently
  - chris_wot 5y ago
    I would hardly call the person who responded "helpful".
    - LeoPanthera 5y ago
      One person does not disprove the rule.
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  The desire to be helpful is rooted in human biology. https://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/01/science/01human.html https://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/01/science/01human.html
  - willcipriano 5y ago
    This isn't a desire to be helpful. A desire to feel important maybe? Is Bluescat lashing out because they can't find a good answer to the question and process no real power to fix it? Who knows, but the desire there isn't to be helpful.
- TMWNN 5y ago
  >It really blows my mind that these Google forums are entirely staffed by unpaid people who are deemed "experts" (with no inside knowledge of how the service in question is developed or what the plans for it are). I've dealt with Bluescat before: https://np.reddit.com/r/Googlevoice/comments/hbatkp/whats_the_magic_url_to_tell_google_voice_to_send/ https://np.reddit.com/r/Googlevoice/comments/hbatkp/whats_th... Note how BluesCatReddit warns me to not use the feature I am asking about because it is surely a secret method that non-experts like me aren't supposed to know about, then when I point out that Google itself documents the feature, desperately tries to maintain his sage position above non-experts like me by generously deigning to tutor me on how to use said feature (which, again, he had no idea existed until I pointed it out to him). Absolutely nothing to do with actually answering my question, of course.
- meowster 5y ago
  It's possible that some people think Google will hire them this way. They probably hear about the great salaries and benefits that programmers get, and think they can get it too if they just try hard enough.

usui 5y ago

> This is like complaining that you drove down the road, and there was a freeway on-ramp next to an off-ramp, and the off-ramp has a sign that says "do not enter", and you're mad that the on-ramp and the off-ramp are next to each other, because you might try to get on the off-ramp. > I have to say, this is the most ridiculous complaint I've seen this month. Users complained for several years that Google Voice didn't have the ability to delete multiple text messages. Now it does. If you can't cope with figuring out the difference between a trash can icon and a file folder icon, then don't use Google Voice. The insidiousness of assuming user bases as monolithic entities has been getting worse. Instead of just assuming that a mythical monolith exists as a representation of users, maybe it's possible that many different types of users exist and that at least being able to add configurability would solve 90% of the issues that occur when groups of people with different opinions use the same app? The recommended answer is not a productive discussion maker. You shouldn't hand-wave valid UI/UX design concerns due to wishes that another part of the user base clamored for. And besides, what if I tap the button by accident? Why was it a good idea to put the "Delete All" button next to the "Archive All" button? And before I forget, I've actually mistaken two different exit ramps before, so the first paragraph is uncalled for.

tshaddox 5y ago
I don’t really see configurability being a reasonable solution to this problem for any group of people. Letting people configure the order in which the delete and archive buttons appear, or whether each button shows a confirm dialog first, isn’t going to address anyone’s problem of having accidentally deleted things permanently.
silisili 5y ago
100% agreed. I am a person with very shaky hands when doing something. It may be 'essential tremors', but I've never bothered to get a diagnosis. It's come and gone since I was a kid. I loathe typing on a phone, or worse, clicking some tiny thing on the phone. The act of tensing my thumb and moving it makes it go haywire at times. I'm not looking for sympathy, at all. But realize at least -some- of us users will misclick things often, especially on mobile.

tdeck 5y ago

It's sad that Google has chosen the support strategy of having these derelict forums staffed only by volunteers. Even sadder that this is probably the closest thing OP will get to a professional response from Google.

wwweston 5y ago

I love the idea of Google Voice, but the actual execution has me looking for an alternative to migrate to, especially since they stopped message forwarding a week or two back. Would love suggestions for feature+ compatible alternatives — and would actually prefer paid over free, since that means the incentives are better lined up.

estromlund 5y ago
(Warning: shameless self promotion) I’ve run an app the last 8 years which is the same idea but lets you have multiple numbers, for as long or short as you want. Calling, texting, voicemail (with custom greeting), outgoing caller ID, etc. There are unlimited plans for $9.99/mo or pay-as-you go plans starting at $2.99/mo which include a few minutes and texts each month but are primarily credit-based (about $0.02 per outgoing text or answered call minute; incoming texts are free) Happy to answer any questions! Link: https://www.unlistedmobile.com https://www.unlistedmobile.com
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
dvtrn 5y ago
I’ve been using Telnyx for a while for burner numbers for a couple of ‘burner’ numbers. Outside of the phone number itself (or the cost to port), it’s pretty much pay for what you use. Does require some setup once you have a number, but as long as you’ve got a SIP capable device (or desktop/mobile app like Bria) you can use the number on it.
nfoz 5y ago
Check out https://jmp.chat/ https://jmp.chat/
- encryptluks2 5y ago
  Thanks... I've tried it before. I was pretty impressed, although I couldn't find any great XMPP clients on Linux at the time, there were a few promising ones. I think I'll give it another try. I love the idea of being able to save chat history locally and backup local chat history with regular backups.

cupcake-unicorn 5y ago

I've used Google voice for some time but I feel that they have abandoned the product for a while and will be giving it the axe like they did with Hangouts and their other chats. It really sucked when Hangouts shut down and now I couldn't get the chats within the new Google Chat app. I miss the old Xmpp Gchat honestly! Speaking of XMPP I'm in the process of switching over to https://jmp.chat/ https://jmp.chat/ for a VOIP text solution which has worked great so far. If you own the Xmpp server you have even more control.

bubblethink 5y ago
xmpp gchat still works. It was supposed to be deprecated long ago, but it still works (maybe with limitations). I use it on my phone with conversations.im. You'll need an app password to log in.
- cupcake-unicorn 5y ago
  Yeah but I couldn't use it for the Voice Texts/hangouts stuff so it was limited for me :/
beeboop 5y ago
I've used Google Voice from before it was even Google Voice, it was called Grand Central or something and they gave me free business cards with my number on it. GV has always been a red headed step child product. It doesn't work natively with any android smart watch, its integrations into other products is sketchy and flaky (like there used to be a google voice widget for gmail). Features have been slowly deteriorating for years. The only reason I still use it as my main number is that it's easy to text in my browser. I don't know if that's easy to do with carrier websites but I've certainly never seen them advertise it. It's 2021 and I still can't get video texts on GV. Well, I can, but they're literally less than 240p resolution. To the point it's difficult to even tell what's happening. And before potato quality, it was flat out not an option for like a decade when every single phone supported it. Group texting also seems to not really work, and the "reactions" people on iphones use aren't supported.

chris_wot 5y ago

Wow, the guy who responded is a total douche. I can see it would be easy to tap the wrong button on a phone. Where do these people crawl out of the woodwork from?

silisili 5y ago

Bluescat response is the posterboy for not letting community support reign supreme. My goodness.

tyingq 5y ago
I browsed some of his other responses, and he seems to be under some delusion that he works for Google. I guess he sort of does, since he's the only support many customers will encounter.
- techrat 5y ago
  The worst part is that he's allowed to recommend his own answers above others, inflating his own stats... regardless of how much of an unhelpful arse he is in his own replies.
  - TMWNN 5y ago
    Yes, that flabbergasted me the most in this whole affair. Shouldn't we assume that he achieved his Diamond status by steadily upvoting himself all this time? Good god.
- silisili 5y ago
  They are a diamond platinum supreme member, doesn't that count for something? Sadly, he/she's paid as much as the asker. In seriousness, I recognize that name from past Google searches. They've been doing 'support' for a long time.
t-writescode 5y ago
If he reads HackerNews and is looking at our responses, I hope he sees mine. He needs a vacation. Right now. Like, no computer, somewhere elsewhere. That’s the kind of response I’ve seen at work when covid is getting everyone angry and hateful. There’s nothing helpful in it, it’s attacking, and frankly, he needs to go read it later and think about what he’s said from another person’s perspective, especially a person with any sort of disability. He claims “30 years IT experience” and yet seems to have never worked with a 70 year old and a computer. Even their mouse movement is shaken.

TMWNN 5y ago

I've dealt with Bluescat before: https://np.reddit.com/r/Googlevoice/comments/hbatkp/whats_the_magic_url_to_tell_google_voice_to_send/ https://np.reddit.com/r/Googlevoice/comments/hbatkp/whats_th... Note how BluesCatReddit warns me to not use the feature I am asking about because it is surely a secret method that non-experts like me aren't supposed to know about, then when I point out that Google itself documents the feature, desperately tries to maintain his sage position above non-experts like me by generously deigning to tutor me on how to use said feature (which, again, he had no idea existed until I pointed it out to him). Absolutely nothing to do with actually answering my question, of course.

willcipriano 5y ago

I am about as backend focused as they come and even I know a single pixel left or right should never be the difference between saving your mothers last voicemail and losing it forever.

HKH2 5y ago

Google Sheets has 'insert a row below' just above 'delete row' in the context menu; I am very careful when using a touchpad. Another one that is more of an unfortunate clash: Ctrl-0 is the default for resetting the zoom in Firefox but in Sheets it will delete columns. Being able to disable functionality or require a dialog box would fix both those issues.

justinpombrio 5y ago
One major difference though: it sounds like this Google Voice trash button is permanent, whereas Sheets has an undo button. I'm not a designer, but isn't this like design 101? Permanent action -> dialog box required.
- HKH2 5y ago
  If you notice the rows/columns have disappeared then you can undo the action.
  - oliwarner 5y ago
    Isn't the lack of newly-inserted row a big enough clue? Or the change in insertion point when you go to insert again? How many levels of error do you want to cover? TFA's point is there is zero chance for recompense here. If you're not going to have Trash or Undo functionality, you need to prompt.
    - HKH2 5y ago
      You can't always guarantee your focus is 100%, no matter how much you'd like it to be. I get TFA's point is about irreversibility, but having those buttons close to each other is part of the problem.
pgn674 5y ago
At least in both situations there Sheets allows you to undo the delete, so the closeness to other commands isn't so lethal. I've got no UX or UI training, but I gotta imagine that it'd be a basic rule that delete actions must always include a confirmation request or an undo option. In Voice, the lack of both confirmation and undo is just ludicrous.

perihelions 5y ago

What pathology of Google internal culture is responsible for this support site? Don't blame the human that you're all piling on; blame the process that allowed this abusive response to be a pinned (self-pinned!) top answer with a 0:105 "helpful?" vote ratio.

godelski 5y ago
What I don't understand is that if you believe your users are idiots doesn't that mean you need to design a product that an idiot can use? Berating users is just ridiculous and does nothing but harm the product. I am seriously pissed off at this culture of "we know best." It is a disconnect from the userbase and we've constantly seen it lead to the product being overtaken by a company that doesn't follow this principle.
macintux 5y ago
I’m fine blaming both. A poor platform doesn’t excuse toxic behavior.
squeaky-clean 5y ago
Like every other part of Google support, there aren't any google employees actually involved. "Diamond Product Expert" is just a tag a community user can earn by getting enough points.
- godelski 5y ago
  I'm not sure how that makes things better. In fact, I think it makes things worse. You're letting random people that are self described experts? That's a great way to create a toxic environment. Every single place I've gone to that has a "community support" that actual employees rarely or never visit has been extremely toxic and unhelpful. They create feedback loops for this toxicity and "in crowd."
- JasonFruit 5y ago
  That, to me, is precisely the problem.
5y ago

peanut_worm 5y ago

Wow the guy who wrote the reply is an outright psycho