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This is literally the path towards fascism. There was a reason Ford was such a big fan of Hitler. Society can be a lot more efficient when everyone is forced t

by slg 5y ago

This is literally the path towards fascism. There was a reason Ford was such a big fan of Hitler. Society can be a lot more efficient when everyone is forced to comply with what our leader thinks is best for us. In comparison to that I would take today's corporate paternalism that basically amounts to "don't be an asshole" any day of the week.

version_five 5y ago
Interesting to see the different takes. I think the comment you replied to was being tongue in cheek with the essential point that the (I agree horrible) interventions by Ford were at least attempting to be constructive. What we see today is something very different, and in my view much closer to "power for power's sake" control that I think you're associating with facism.
- slg 5y ago
  >What we see today is something very different, and in my view much closer to "power for power's sake" control that I think you're associating with facism. I'm not really sure what you are implying here. Can you give some examples of this power for power's sake behavior? Everything that I can think of has a plausible even if misguided motive.
rayiner 5y ago
Lots of non-fascist societies put less weight on unbridled individual self determination and more weight on social infrastructure to help people make good decisions. I’d argue we lean too heavily in the direction of thinking everyone should figure life out by themselves with no external pressure. This hurts young people, who lack experience and the benefit of hindsight, and less intellectually gifted people, who may lack judgment and impulse control. People these days indeed actively give destructive advice. Thinking of abandoning your stable long term relationship? “Follow your heart!”
- slg 5y ago
  The problem I had was not the split between individualism and collectivism. The problem is that these "lessons" are coming from an employer with corrupted incentives. They aren't trying to make a better citizenry. They are making a better cog for the machine. Hence the fascism angle. If you want to teach these lessons, teach them through the education system.
  - rayiner 5y ago
    I agree with you—as I said above, my point is conditional on “if we are going to have corporate paternalism.” I don’t think we should.
datavirtue 5y ago
Hitler was a fan of Ford's. Complete opposite. Hitler used Ford techniques. Your assertion is probably "common knowledge" but it is completely wrong. You should probably read Rise and Fall of the Third Reich before commenting further on that window of history. There are also several documentaries that cover this as well. An especially good one is: Hitler: A career (1977).

by slg 5y ago

version_five 5y ago

Interesting to see the different takes. I think the comment you replied to was being tongue in cheek with the essential point that the (I agree horrible) interventions by Ford were at least attempting to be constructive. What we see today is something very different, and in my view much closer to "power for power's sake" control that I think you're associating with facism.

slg 5y ago
>What we see today is something very different, and in my view much closer to "power for power's sake" control that I think you're associating with facism. I'm not really sure what you are implying here. Can you give some examples of this power for power's sake behavior? Everything that I can think of has a plausible even if misguided motive.

rayiner 5y ago

Lots of non-fascist societies put less weight on unbridled individual self determination and more weight on social infrastructure to help people make good decisions. I’d argue we lean too heavily in the direction of thinking everyone should figure life out by themselves with no external pressure. This hurts young people, who lack experience and the benefit of hindsight, and less intellectually gifted people, who may lack judgment and impulse control. People these days indeed actively give destructive advice. Thinking of abandoning your stable long term relationship? “Follow your heart!”

slg 5y ago
The problem I had was not the split between individualism and collectivism. The problem is that these "lessons" are coming from an employer with corrupted incentives. They aren't trying to make a better citizenry. They are making a better cog for the machine. Hence the fascism angle. If you want to teach these lessons, teach them through the education system.
- rayiner 5y ago
  I agree with you—as I said above, my point is conditional on “if we are going to have corporate paternalism.” I don’t think we should.

datavirtue 5y ago

Hitler was a fan of Ford's. Complete opposite. Hitler used Ford techniques. Your assertion is probably "common knowledge" but it is completely wrong. You should probably read Rise and Fall of the Third Reich before commenting further on that window of history. There are also several documentaries that cover this as well. An especially good one is: Hitler: A career (1977).