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I compare my time living in New York City in 1994 to now living in Bangkok, Thailand, 2021. Both very large cities with about 8 million people each. New York

I compare my time living in New York City in 1994 to now living in Bangkok, Thailand, 2021. Both very large cities with about 8 million people each. New York City (5 boroughs) has become almost unaffordable for someone on the mean wage and salary USA personal income, which is $66K USD in 2019. You more or less have to share your apartment. If I'm renting an apartment in any of the 5 boroughs that is anywhere near decent, I'm probably going to pay over $2,000 p/m. Even in Bangkok, although rents are lower, salaries are also lower for the people at the bottom, so in the end, it comes down to the same problem. Most office workers making under USD$1,000 per month will be living in substandard accommodation or with family. I would say, that in cities, food and transportation are still relatively cheap. But rents are driving out a lot of people now. We will see the soft white underbelly of all of this when the rent moratoriums finally end. (Winter is coming!)

oh_sigh 5y ago
Why use the median wage nationally, when almost everyone living in NY benefits from higher wages there? Even the jobs which require no skill and no work experience pay $15/hr
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- mjmahone17 5y ago
  Exactly. $15/hr with $2k/mo of rent is entirely unaffordable (that would mean $2,400/mo in wages, or 80% of total pay). And that’s less than half the median wage nationally. That makes the argument that NYC is unaffordable even stronger.
  - oh_sigh 5y ago
    Where does $2k/mo rent come from? I paid less than that while working at a FANG making $200k/yr.
- NineStarPoint 5y ago
  Crazily enough, the median household income in New York City isn’t significantly different than the national average. In 2017 it was about 1k lower than the nation, and in 2018 it was 2k higher. The mean income in NYC is of course a fair bit higher than the national average, but in general that higher minimum wage doesn’t mean that people in NYC make much more than anyone else in the US, despite the significant cost of living there.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > Crazily enough, the median household income in New York City isn’t significantly different than the national average. In 2017 it was about 1k lower than the nation, and in 2018 it was 2k higher. Median household income and median wage (or, alternatively, the former and median personal income, which isn't quite the same thing as median wage, but closely related) are not the same things. Of course, this thread has gone from one person mentioning mean wage and salary income to the response discussing median wage as if it were the same to the response to that discussing median household income as if it was the same.
- yarky 5y ago
  Median wage in ny was 68k according to the US census bureau (2015-2019). OP was talking about a mean instead of a median btw.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > Median wage in ny was 68k according to the US census bureau (2015-2019). That seems to be what the Census Bureau has for median household income for New York State for that period; I can't find any Census Bureau report for median wage for NYC, and that number doesn't match any Census Bureau reported income & poverty measure for New York City.
dragonwriter 5y ago
> the mean wage and salary USA personal income, which is $66K USD in 2019. No, the mean wage and salary personal income in 2019 was $51,916.27 (the median was $34,248.45.) [0] Both of those are across the employed population, whole population figures will be lower. 66K is roughly (but not exactly, but maybe a ”real” figure using earlier base year constant dollars) 2019 median household income. [0] https://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html https://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html
fy20 5y ago
When I was younger I lived in a few different cities and the usual thing to do was share the rent with others. So yes $1500/mo for an apartment may have been unaffordable, but that's an apartment with 3 rooms so find some people to share it with and you are paying $500/mo each. If you get along with said people there are other benefits too vs living on your own, so it's a win-win. The problem I see with this In my city today is almost all new developments are smaller, being studios or 1 or 2 bedrooms. As the older housing stock is replaced, it means at sometime in the future it's not going to be possible to share as I did. Most people who have families move to the suburbs when they outgrow their apartment, so there isn't much demand for larger properties amongst people who can afford to buy them.

oh_sigh 5y ago

Why use the median wage nationally, when almost everyone living in NY benefits from higher wages there? Even the jobs which require no skill and no work experience pay $15/hr

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
mjmahone17 5y ago
Exactly. $15/hr with $2k/mo of rent is entirely unaffordable (that would mean $2,400/mo in wages, or 80% of total pay). And that’s less than half the median wage nationally. That makes the argument that NYC is unaffordable even stronger.
- oh_sigh 5y ago
  Where does $2k/mo rent come from? I paid less than that while working at a FANG making $200k/yr.
NineStarPoint 5y ago
Crazily enough, the median household income in New York City isn’t significantly different than the national average. In 2017 it was about 1k lower than the nation, and in 2018 it was 2k higher. The mean income in NYC is of course a fair bit higher than the national average, but in general that higher minimum wage doesn’t mean that people in NYC make much more than anyone else in the US, despite the significant cost of living there.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Crazily enough, the median household income in New York City isn’t significantly different than the national average. In 2017 it was about 1k lower than the nation, and in 2018 it was 2k higher. Median household income and median wage (or, alternatively, the former and median personal income, which isn't quite the same thing as median wage, but closely related) are not the same things. Of course, this thread has gone from one person mentioning mean wage and salary income to the response discussing median wage as if it were the same to the response to that discussing median household income as if it was the same.
yarky 5y ago
Median wage in ny was 68k according to the US census bureau (2015-2019). OP was talking about a mean instead of a median btw.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Median wage in ny was 68k according to the US census bureau (2015-2019). That seems to be what the Census Bureau has for median household income for New York State for that period; I can't find any Census Bureau report for median wage for NYC, and that number doesn't match any Census Bureau reported income & poverty measure for New York City.

dragonwriter 5y ago

> the mean wage and salary USA personal income, which is $66K USD in 2019. No, the mean wage and salary personal income in 2019 was $51,916.27 (the median was $34,248.45.) [0] Both of those are across the employed population, whole population figures will be lower. 66K is roughly (but not exactly, but maybe a ”real” figure using earlier base year constant dollars) 2019 median household income. [0] https://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html https://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/central.html

fy20 5y ago

When I was younger I lived in a few different cities and the usual thing to do was share the rent with others. So yes $1500/mo for an apartment may have been unaffordable, but that's an apartment with 3 rooms so find some people to share it with and you are paying $500/mo each. If you get along with said people there are other benefits too vs living on your own, so it's a win-win. The problem I see with this In my city today is almost all new developments are smaller, being studios or 1 or 2 bedrooms. As the older housing stock is replaced, it means at sometime in the future it's not going to be possible to share as I did. Most people who have families move to the suburbs when they outgrow their apartment, so there isn't much demand for larger properties amongst people who can afford to buy them.