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I think it's rare, at least in the US, to find people who are aware of how fucked up capitalism is. Or have ever given any real thought to how ethical it is. Bu

I think it's rare, at least in the US, to find people who are aware of how fucked up capitalism is. Or have ever given any real thought to how ethical it is. But its atrocities are all around us in plain sight, every time someone dies from lack of healthcare, food, or shelter - or crimes and accidents that happen in the course of pursuing these essentials. To live in a world perfectly capable (in a purely physical and logistical context) of providing necessities of living for everyone regardless of their output or decisions, but chooses not to, is pretty dystopian to me.

SamPatt 5y ago
We've seen multiple attempts at non-capitalist systems, and they have an abysmal track record. Living standards are way higher today than a century ago. You are comparing against a non-existent Utopia.
- beeboop 5y ago
  Capitalism doesn't like non-capitalist systems. Any examples we possibly have of non-capitalist structures always have capitalist pressures exerted against them. To pretend that established powers have not consistently and aggressively tried to stamp out threats to capitalism is ridiculous. >Living standards are way higher today than a century ago. How much higher would they be without capitalism? Probably a lot. >You are comparing against a non-existent Utopia. I realize it doesn't exist, that doesn't mean it shouldn't, or that the reasons it doesn't aren't immoral and unethical. We have a lot more examples of failed capitalist countries than failed communist ones. Failure cannot be directly linked to a country's economic system. It happens in both for a wide range of reasons.
  - CryptoPunk 5y ago
    >>To pretend that established powers have not consistently and aggressively tried to stamp out threats to capitalism is ridiculous. I recommend you do more research on systems that have tried to eliminate money, private property and trade. While there has been some US intervention to disrupt them, as in the case of US backed coup attempts, funding of political and armed opposition, and sanctions, the totalitarianism and dysfunction they create is so extreme that there is doubt that anti-market systems are unnatural and unworkable. >>We have a lot more examples of failed capitalist countries than failed communist ones. Look at China before and after its 1978 market reforms, or East versus West Germany, or South versus North Korea. We have socialists in the West, like Jacobin magazine founder Bhaskar Sunkara defending the Berlin wall, that was used to prevent people in East Germany from fleeing, and even the brutal murder of Czar Nicholas II's little children, to avoid admitting that socialism is harmful. Beware of who you believe.
- int_19h 5y ago
  Not quite. We've seen multiple attempts at the same non-capitalist system. OTOH how many people are aware of Rojava or the Zapatistas, and their track record?

SamPatt 5y ago

We've seen multiple attempts at non-capitalist systems, and they have an abysmal track record. Living standards are way higher today than a century ago. You are comparing against a non-existent Utopia.

beeboop 5y ago
Capitalism doesn't like non-capitalist systems. Any examples we possibly have of non-capitalist structures always have capitalist pressures exerted against them. To pretend that established powers have not consistently and aggressively tried to stamp out threats to capitalism is ridiculous. >Living standards are way higher today than a century ago. How much higher would they be without capitalism? Probably a lot. >You are comparing against a non-existent Utopia. I realize it doesn't exist, that doesn't mean it shouldn't, or that the reasons it doesn't aren't immoral and unethical. We have a lot more examples of failed capitalist countries than failed communist ones. Failure cannot be directly linked to a country's economic system. It happens in both for a wide range of reasons.
- CryptoPunk 5y ago
  >>To pretend that established powers have not consistently and aggressively tried to stamp out threats to capitalism is ridiculous. I recommend you do more research on systems that have tried to eliminate money, private property and trade. While there has been some US intervention to disrupt them, as in the case of US backed coup attempts, funding of political and armed opposition, and sanctions, the totalitarianism and dysfunction they create is so extreme that there is doubt that anti-market systems are unnatural and unworkable. >>We have a lot more examples of failed capitalist countries than failed communist ones. Look at China before and after its 1978 market reforms, or East versus West Germany, or South versus North Korea. We have socialists in the West, like Jacobin magazine founder Bhaskar Sunkara defending the Berlin wall, that was used to prevent people in East Germany from fleeing, and even the brutal murder of Czar Nicholas II's little children, to avoid admitting that socialism is harmful. Beware of who you believe.
int_19h 5y ago
Not quite. We've seen multiple attempts at the same non-capitalist system. OTOH how many people are aware of Rojava or the Zapatistas, and their track record?