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I doubt it is a solved problem or AirBNB would be using it. Imagine what the negotiations would be like. They need insurance for: -An open-ended number of peop

I doubt it is a solved problem or AirBNB would be using it. Imagine what the negotiations would be like. They need insurance for: -An open-ended number of people worldwide (constantly changing) -Any sort of property from shitty apartments all the way to fancy houses (no estimate of value possible, requires appraisers) -Damage/theft caused by people with unverified identities (all they have is CC, stolen?) -Any and all damage (including accidental death of people staying there?), including stolen identities and fire damage (to other properties as well?) -No security requirements for properties (fire alarms? carbon monoxide detectors? checking up on the place?) I have a feeling that would cost more than 10%.

jonhohle 15y ago
Imagine negotiating insurance for a mobile business where people are flung around 30+ feet in the air with no safety harness, others stick their heads in the mouths of lions or are "sat" on by elephants, and still others stick flaming swords into their throats. Meanwhile, children are riding on devices assembled by people who may not have a high school diploma (at least that's the impression I get). These businesses are generally very well insured. There are insurance companies that deal specifically with unique, high risk insurance situations that are only applicable to very few clients. You don't buy these policies from Nationwide (directly), but they likely have a subsidiary which handles policies like this. In turn, those subsidiaries take out insurance policies on the high risk policy (it's turtles all the way down). Disclaimer, my FIL used to work for an insurance company who dealt with high risk policies.
- krschultz 15y ago
  That's not exactly the point. An insurance policy for a high risk activity - let's say skydiving - is very well definited. There are statistics on accident rates. There is a pretty defined payout when someone dies. The problem is not the risk level, it's the undefined nature of the problem. AirBnB doesn't know the value of the property they are renting. They don't have a long enough history to figure out what these kind of things could cost. What if I rent out a mansion, are they as liable there as in this case? Does AirBnB limit their pay out? These are questions they will have to come through at some point.
  - AlexandrB 15y ago
    > Does AirBnB limit their pay out? Yes. And make it clear that the payout is limited in the TOS. That way AirBnB/their insurer assume some well-defined amount of risk and it's not all on the renter. The issue of insurance fraud is tougher though.
    - rdl 15y ago
      The other tricky thing is that they need to negotiate this per jurisdiction. They can't sell insurance directly in most markets without being an insurer, and there are all kinds of BS legacy laws about referring and reselling insurance too. (i.e. you'd need to go to classes and be a registered agent to offer it) It would be a fun problem to solve for them. I don't think the actual per-room-night price for, say, $10-20k in contents and $bignum in liability (i.e. my guest burns down the building and kills everyone) would be that high; on the order of $10. 2m nights is enough to have some data, and this is similar to the vacation market. It could even just be a rider on top of existing homeowners/renters insurance. A nice trick might be to sell renters insurance at the same time, and make money off that (which is IMO something everyone should have anyway, even if they don't use airbnb), with free coverage for airbnb use.
- hugh3 15y ago
  At least circuses have low potential for fraud -- nobody gets eaten by a lion just for the cash. If airbnb started insuring (directly or indirectly) against damage caused by renters then there's quite a few ways for unscrupulous folks to try to rip that off.
- a3camero 15y ago
  I'm not saying it's not possible but it is expensive (high risk = high cost). What's AirBNB's margin? They charge 10% but after expenses, can they make money paying the insurer X%? That's the fundamental question and I suspect it's "No".
- jeffdavis 15y ago
  You're missing the point. It may be that the rewards possible from renting out your house for a few nights might not be worth the risks in letting strangers into your home (at least under the current terms offered by Airbnb). That would mean that AirBNB doesn't have a viable business model, or that it's a much smaller market than previously thought. Saying "insurance will handle it" isn't an answer. AirBnb needs to come up with some creative and effective policies to solve the real underlying problems first. A good start would be better identity verification of renters. Once they've turned it from a bad risk into a good risk for a large market of people, then they can outsource the details to an insurance company.
run4yourlives 15y ago
Lloyd's will insure it if you can think of it, basically. AirBnB is not that far out there that they couldn't get at least three special risk companies to give them a decent quote. I'm in the insurance field btw.
- farrel 15y ago
  Can you even get insurance on an illegal activity. It seems clear that many people on Airbnb are either illegally subletting their rental apartment or in places like NY where Airbnb is violating laws meant to stop illegal and unlicensed hotels.
  - run4yourlives 15y ago
    Sub-letting is more often perfectly legal, but yes, I'd imagine if you are in contradiction of either your rental agreement and/or local laws you would also be voiding your insurance contract.
deleted 15y ago
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jonhohle 15y ago

Imagine negotiating insurance for a mobile business where people are flung around 30+ feet in the air with no safety harness, others stick their heads in the mouths of lions or are "sat" on by elephants, and still others stick flaming swords into their throats. Meanwhile, children are riding on devices assembled by people who may not have a high school diploma (at least that's the impression I get). These businesses are generally very well insured. There are insurance companies that deal specifically with unique, high risk insurance situations that are only applicable to very few clients. You don't buy these policies from Nationwide (directly), but they likely have a subsidiary which handles policies like this. In turn, those subsidiaries take out insurance policies on the high risk policy (it's turtles all the way down). Disclaimer, my FIL used to work for an insurance company who dealt with high risk policies.

krschultz 15y ago
That's not exactly the point. An insurance policy for a high risk activity - let's say skydiving - is very well definited. There are statistics on accident rates. There is a pretty defined payout when someone dies. The problem is not the risk level, it's the undefined nature of the problem. AirBnB doesn't know the value of the property they are renting. They don't have a long enough history to figure out what these kind of things could cost. What if I rent out a mansion, are they as liable there as in this case? Does AirBnB limit their pay out? These are questions they will have to come through at some point.
- AlexandrB 15y ago
  > Does AirBnB limit their pay out? Yes. And make it clear that the payout is limited in the TOS. That way AirBnB/their insurer assume some well-defined amount of risk and it's not all on the renter. The issue of insurance fraud is tougher though.
  - rdl 15y ago
    The other tricky thing is that they need to negotiate this per jurisdiction. They can't sell insurance directly in most markets without being an insurer, and there are all kinds of BS legacy laws about referring and reselling insurance too. (i.e. you'd need to go to classes and be a registered agent to offer it) It would be a fun problem to solve for them. I don't think the actual per-room-night price for, say, $10-20k in contents and $bignum in liability (i.e. my guest burns down the building and kills everyone) would be that high; on the order of $10. 2m nights is enough to have some data, and this is similar to the vacation market. It could even just be a rider on top of existing homeowners/renters insurance. A nice trick might be to sell renters insurance at the same time, and make money off that (which is IMO something everyone should have anyway, even if they don't use airbnb), with free coverage for airbnb use.
hugh3 15y ago
At least circuses have low potential for fraud -- nobody gets eaten by a lion just for the cash. If airbnb started insuring (directly or indirectly) against damage caused by renters then there's quite a few ways for unscrupulous folks to try to rip that off.
a3camero 15y ago
I'm not saying it's not possible but it is expensive (high risk = high cost). What's AirBNB's margin? They charge 10% but after expenses, can they make money paying the insurer X%? That's the fundamental question and I suspect it's "No".
jeffdavis 15y ago
You're missing the point. It may be that the rewards possible from renting out your house for a few nights might not be worth the risks in letting strangers into your home (at least under the current terms offered by Airbnb). That would mean that AirBNB doesn't have a viable business model, or that it's a much smaller market than previously thought. Saying "insurance will handle it" isn't an answer. AirBnb needs to come up with some creative and effective policies to solve the real underlying problems first. A good start would be better identity verification of renters. Once they've turned it from a bad risk into a good risk for a large market of people, then they can outsource the details to an insurance company.

run4yourlives 15y ago

Lloyd's will insure it if you can think of it, basically. AirBnB is not that far out there that they couldn't get at least three special risk companies to give them a decent quote. I'm in the insurance field btw.

farrel 15y ago
Can you even get insurance on an illegal activity. It seems clear that many people on Airbnb are either illegally subletting their rental apartment or in places like NY where Airbnb is violating laws meant to stop illegal and unlicensed hotels.
- run4yourlives 15y ago
  Sub-letting is more often perfectly legal, but yes, I'd imagine if you are in contradiction of either your rental agreement and/or local laws you would also be voiding your insurance contract.

deleted 15y ago

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