8 ms·

Take a look: https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articles/628045/fneur-12-628045-HTML/image_m/fneur-12-628045-g007.jpg https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articles/

Take a look: https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articles/628045/fneur-12-628045-HTML/image_m/fneur-12-628045-g007.jpg https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articles/628045/fneur-12-6... These are spirochetes in the brain/spine of a dead patient who had proven lyme diagnosis, has been given the standard treatment in the past, never recovered, developed dementia, died. Full study: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fneur.2021.628045/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fneur.2021.6280... The wikipedia article you are quoting is outdated misinformation, please stop spreading it. the wiki article is indeed misinformation.

yodsanklai 5y ago
I'd encourage anyone interested to do their own research. The scientific consensus today is what is stated in the linked wikipedia article. There are lot of myths around Lyme disease. https://eu.delawareonline.com/story/sponsor-story/nemours/2018/05/01/debunking-myths-surrounding-lyme-disease/532264002/ https://eu.delawareonline.com/story/sponsor-story/nemours/20... Myth #5: Lyme disease can have debilitating, lifelong effects. Fact: When treated with antibiotics, Lyme disease, at any stage of presentation, is curable. Myth #6: My child will be at risk for chronic Lyme disease once he’s infected with Lyme. Fact: Although some people report lingering or recurrent symptoms after Lyme disease, there is no evidence that chronic Lyme disease exists. Prolonged courses of antibiotics are not needed and can do more harm than good. Follow the recommendations of trusted sources such as the Centers for Disease Control and the Pediatric Infectious Diseases Society. Myth #7: Alternative therapies are valuable treatment options for my child’s Lyme disease infection. Fact: Lyme disease is a hot topic on the internet with many people sharing both successes and horror stories about alternative treatments, but keep in mind that it is hard to verify the legitimacy of internet sources. Instead, talk to your child’s pediatrician, or consult with a pediatric infectious diseases physician at an academic medical center.
- akyu 5y ago
  >The scientific consensus today is what is stated in the linked wikipedia article. Simply saying this doesn't make it true. This is not true and that Wikipedia article is outdated.
  - yodsanklai 5y ago
    Just like saying it's not true doesn't make it untrue. Which is why I'd encourage everybody to do their own research, and at least know that there are a lot of controversies around this topic.
    - inter_netuser 5y ago
      Please do YOUR research and read the paper that went thru peer review and was published. once YOU read that paper, please post YOUR peer review summary here. enough with appeals to authority. wikipedia is not even an authoritative source to begin with.
      - freshpots 5y ago
        Are you also a big fan of the scam Dr. Sponaugle and the multitude of forums about chronic Lyme, and consider those charlatans scammers the truth? https://www.vice.com/en/article/m7jk9q/rick-sponaugle-pots-chronic-lyme-sponaugle-wellness-center https://www.vice.com/en/article/m7jk9q/rick-sponaugle-pots-c... Edit: Is Lyme-literate another term you and your internet friends use? Look at the case against him: https://mqa-internet.doh.state.fl.us/MQASearchServices/HealthCareProviders/LicenseVerification?LicInd=37362&ProCde=1501 https://mqa-internet.doh.state.fl.us/MQASearchServices/Healt... Scam Dr's like this are causing the FUD you are spreading.
        inter_netuser 5y ago
        Take a look here: https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articles/628045/fneur-12-628045-HTML/image_m/fneur-12-628045-g007.jpg https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articles/628045/fneur-12-6... These are spirochetes in the brain/spine of a dead patient. She had proven lyme diagnosis in the past, has been given the standard treatment and had good response(!), only to relapse, never recover and went on to develop neurological issues years later, and died. The brain was donated and autopsied. Full study: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fneur.2021.628045/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fneur.2021.6280... Are you saying the lead scientist on this paper, from the Tulane National Primate Research Center is a scammer? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulane_National_Primate_Research_Center https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulane_National_Primate_Resear...) Seems like a big accusation.
- coding123 5y ago
  Yeah did you read his links? https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fneur.2021.628045/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fneur.2021.6280... Pretty damning.
- darkerside 5y ago
  Garbage misinformation. Myth #5: Lyme disease can have debilitating, lifelong effects. Fact: When treated with antibiotics, Lyme disease, at any stage of presentation, is curable. The fact provided in response assumes that people are getting antibiotic treatment, which is not always the case. If you go untreated, then you can have lifelong debilitating effects. I don't think even the author of the article would dispute that. So why is the author using weaselly arguments to imply that you can't? Seems like an attempt to confirm a biased judgement.
- garyrob 5y ago
  I know where you're coming from. I believe it is the appropriate attitude in discussing misinformation with, for example, covid. BUT I really did do my own research with respect to Lyme, reading deeply into the peer-reviewed literature, and I came to the conclusion that the "scientific consensus" was formed by people too lazy or misguided to read it themselves. For example, the consensus was that Lyme couldn't persist in humans after antibiotic treatment. But it DOES persist in other animals including primates. They could easily discover that because they could euthanize those other animals to see if it was there in their tissues, and it was. They couldn't do that with humans. The conclusion is OBVIOUSLY not that it can't happen in humans, but rather that we haven't proved it could. The "scientific consensus" got those outcomes confused, and assumed it couldn't. But consider this quote from the OP article: "In May, her research team published their strongest evidence to date of persistent Lyme symptoms. In a unique finding, they discovered Lyme bacteria in the tissues of a deceased 69-year-old woman who contracted the disease, was treated multiple times with antibiotics, and still couldn’t clear the infection from her body.” I was impressed by related evidence a couple years ago, such as an examination of the brains of people who had died of Alzheimer's. I don't remember the exact number, but something like 25% of those brains contained Lyme spirochetes. Note that there is a theory gaining traction recently that Alzheimer's is caused by the brain's attempts to manage active infections. There is much, much more to say, and a LOT of research that goes in the opposite direction of what you're assuming in your post. An anecdote: researchers tested hundreds of FDA-approved drugs in test tubes to see which ones worked best at killing Lyme spirochetes. Disulfiram won. My wife, who had lost her career as a retinal surgeon and researcher due to a chronic illness we thought might be chronic Lyme, took disulfiram under the care of her doctor who had treated Lyme patients for decades, and who was one of the first to try disulfiram in patients. After the treatment, her illness disappeared. Our older son also had the same illness, which led to him taking a year off from school because he just couldn't function. He had been taking antibiotics for a couple years. At one point we stopped the antibiotics, and he felt great for a week, worse the next week, and in week 3 he was all the way back to being pretty nonfunctional with the symptoms attributed to "chronic Lyme". He, too, took disulfiram and was cured. Note that we had long spent summers on Little Deer Isle, Maine, known for its deer and deer ticks.
  - Quinner 5y ago
jacksonkmarley 5y ago
From that study: > These results however do not clarify whether the Borrelia infection had anything to do with her progressive neurodegenerative disorder
- inter_netuser 5y ago
  Impossible to do this reliably on a single patient with multiple conditions and advanced age. One could take a guess, but the error bar would be 0.0-1.0 This study set out to prove chronic persistence of the pathogen despite standard treatments, which is rather hard to dispute.
  - jacksonkmarley 5y ago
    Being able to detect Borrelia Spirochetes is not equivalent to linking them with chronic symptoms.
    - nicoburns 5y ago
      I think the key thing is that it disproves the idea that the bacteria which cause the disease are reliably eliminated by antibiotics, which is typically a key point that those in the "it's not cause by lyme" camp rely on. Doesn't prove that it is lyme, but it shifts the balance of probablities considerably.
      - jacksonkmarley 5y ago
        I don't have an opinion on what the "it's not caused by lyme" camp rely on, but the wikipedia page complained about above actually already references another study that found spirochetes in animals after antibiotic treatment. No doubt the language in that wikipedia page is pretty triggering if you already believe chronic lyme disease is a thing though.
        inter_netuser 5y ago
        The human study was literally done because denial of chronic lyme persisted despite multiple reliable studies in animal models. It's quite disgusting and begets further questions as to why such attitudes towards Lyme exist in the first place.
computer23 5y ago
Inter_netuser: That Frontiers paper is about as reliable as Big Foot hunters claiming they finally found him. The authors Brian Fallon and Monica Embers have been trying to prove chronic Lyme beliefs for many years. They are funded by their antiscience movement: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4489928/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4489928/ The Frontiers paper is a single case report that admits that the woman's Lyme ELISA (and hence total antibodies to Lyme) was negative when she started experiencing dementia. Without antibodies against Lyme, it would be a mistake to claim that she had "chronic Lyme" (which isn't real regardless.) The paper is consistent with someone who had lyme disease (a not-uncommon illness) and then years later was diagnosed with dementia, but you can't say Lyme caused the dementia. There is a scientific consensus against chronic Lyme based on decades of research. It's disturbing that chronic Lyme has become a dangerous social phenomenon based on conspiracy theories, fake diagnoses, and fake treatments. https://www.thecut.com/2019/07/what-happens-when-lyme-disease-becomes-an-identity.html https://www.thecut.com/2019/07/what-happens-when-lyme-diseas...
- inter_netuser 5y ago
  The study contains rather painfully obvious images of the pathogen under the microscope in the brain/spine. Seems your assertion here is that a professor of immunology at Tulane has committed fraud. That is a very serious accusation and the onus is on you to prove that. Do you have any evidence? Can you point me to any histology experts that have disputed these findings? 1. Was the slide image in the study real? 2. Was pathogen visible in the slice? 3. Why is there a pathogen in the brain several decades later?

yodsanklai 5y ago

I'd encourage anyone interested to do their own research. The scientific consensus today is what is stated in the linked wikipedia article. There are lot of myths around Lyme disease. https://eu.delawareonline.com/story/sponsor-story/nemours/2018/05/01/debunking-myths-surrounding-lyme-disease/532264002/ https://eu.delawareonline.com/story/sponsor-story/nemours/20... Myth #5: Lyme disease can have debilitating, lifelong effects. Fact: When treated with antibiotics, Lyme disease, at any stage of presentation, is curable. Myth #6: My child will be at risk for chronic Lyme disease once he’s infected with Lyme. Fact: Although some people report lingering or recurrent symptoms after Lyme disease, there is no evidence that chronic Lyme disease exists. Prolonged courses of antibiotics are not needed and can do more harm than good. Follow the recommendations of trusted sources such as the Centers for Disease Control and the Pediatric Infectious Diseases Society. Myth #7: Alternative therapies are valuable treatment options for my child’s Lyme disease infection. Fact: Lyme disease is a hot topic on the internet with many people sharing both successes and horror stories about alternative treatments, but keep in mind that it is hard to verify the legitimacy of internet sources. Instead, talk to your child’s pediatrician, or consult with a pediatric infectious diseases physician at an academic medical center.

akyu 5y ago
>The scientific consensus today is what is stated in the linked wikipedia article. Simply saying this doesn't make it true. This is not true and that Wikipedia article is outdated.
- yodsanklai 5y ago
  Just like saying it's not true doesn't make it untrue. Which is why I'd encourage everybody to do their own research, and at least know that there are a lot of controversies around this topic.
  - inter_netuser 5y ago
    Please do YOUR research and read the paper that went thru peer review and was published. once YOU read that paper, please post YOUR peer review summary here. enough with appeals to authority. wikipedia is not even an authoritative source to begin with.
    - freshpots 5y ago
      Are you also a big fan of the scam Dr. Sponaugle and the multitude of forums about chronic Lyme, and consider those charlatans scammers the truth? https://www.vice.com/en/article/m7jk9q/rick-sponaugle-pots-chronic-lyme-sponaugle-wellness-center https://www.vice.com/en/article/m7jk9q/rick-sponaugle-pots-c... Edit: Is Lyme-literate another term you and your internet friends use? Look at the case against him: https://mqa-internet.doh.state.fl.us/MQASearchServices/HealthCareProviders/LicenseVerification?LicInd=37362&ProCde=1501 https://mqa-internet.doh.state.fl.us/MQASearchServices/Healt... Scam Dr's like this are causing the FUD you are spreading.
      - inter_netuser 5y ago
        Take a look here: https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articles/628045/fneur-12-628045-HTML/image_m/fneur-12-628045-g007.jpg https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articles/628045/fneur-12-6... These are spirochetes in the brain/spine of a dead patient. She had proven lyme diagnosis in the past, has been given the standard treatment and had good response(!), only to relapse, never recover and went on to develop neurological issues years later, and died. The brain was donated and autopsied. Full study: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fneur.2021.628045/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fneur.2021.6280... Are you saying the lead scientist on this paper, from the Tulane National Primate Research Center is a scammer? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulane_National_Primate_Research_Center https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulane_National_Primate_Resear...) Seems like a big accusation.
coding123 5y ago
Yeah did you read his links? https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fneur.2021.628045/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fneur.2021.6280... Pretty damning.
darkerside 5y ago
Garbage misinformation. Myth #5: Lyme disease can have debilitating, lifelong effects. Fact: When treated with antibiotics, Lyme disease, at any stage of presentation, is curable. The fact provided in response assumes that people are getting antibiotic treatment, which is not always the case. If you go untreated, then you can have lifelong debilitating effects. I don't think even the author of the article would dispute that. So why is the author using weaselly arguments to imply that you can't? Seems like an attempt to confirm a biased judgement.
garyrob 5y ago
I know where you're coming from. I believe it is the appropriate attitude in discussing misinformation with, for example, covid. BUT I really did do my own research with respect to Lyme, reading deeply into the peer-reviewed literature, and I came to the conclusion that the "scientific consensus" was formed by people too lazy or misguided to read it themselves. For example, the consensus was that Lyme couldn't persist in humans after antibiotic treatment. But it DOES persist in other animals including primates. They could easily discover that because they could euthanize those other animals to see if it was there in their tissues, and it was. They couldn't do that with humans. The conclusion is OBVIOUSLY not that it can't happen in humans, but rather that we haven't proved it could. The "scientific consensus" got those outcomes confused, and assumed it couldn't. But consider this quote from the OP article: "In May, her research team published their strongest evidence to date of persistent Lyme symptoms. In a unique finding, they discovered Lyme bacteria in the tissues of a deceased 69-year-old woman who contracted the disease, was treated multiple times with antibiotics, and still couldn’t clear the infection from her body.” I was impressed by related evidence a couple years ago, such as an examination of the brains of people who had died of Alzheimer's. I don't remember the exact number, but something like 25% of those brains contained Lyme spirochetes. Note that there is a theory gaining traction recently that Alzheimer's is caused by the brain's attempts to manage active infections. There is much, much more to say, and a LOT of research that goes in the opposite direction of what you're assuming in your post. An anecdote: researchers tested hundreds of FDA-approved drugs in test tubes to see which ones worked best at killing Lyme spirochetes. Disulfiram won. My wife, who had lost her career as a retinal surgeon and researcher due to a chronic illness we thought might be chronic Lyme, took disulfiram under the care of her doctor who had treated Lyme patients for decades, and who was one of the first to try disulfiram in patients. After the treatment, her illness disappeared. Our older son also had the same illness, which led to him taking a year off from school because he just couldn't function. He had been taking antibiotics for a couple years. At one point we stopped the antibiotics, and he felt great for a week, worse the next week, and in week 3 he was all the way back to being pretty nonfunctional with the symptoms attributed to "chronic Lyme". He, too, took disulfiram and was cured. Note that we had long spent summers on Little Deer Isle, Maine, known for its deer and deer ticks.
- Quinner 5y ago

jacksonkmarley 5y ago

From that study: > These results however do not clarify whether the Borrelia infection had anything to do with her progressive neurodegenerative disorder

inter_netuser 5y ago
Impossible to do this reliably on a single patient with multiple conditions and advanced age. One could take a guess, but the error bar would be 0.0-1.0 This study set out to prove chronic persistence of the pathogen despite standard treatments, which is rather hard to dispute.
- jacksonkmarley 5y ago
  Being able to detect Borrelia Spirochetes is not equivalent to linking them with chronic symptoms.
  - nicoburns 5y ago
    I think the key thing is that it disproves the idea that the bacteria which cause the disease are reliably eliminated by antibiotics, which is typically a key point that those in the "it's not cause by lyme" camp rely on. Doesn't prove that it is lyme, but it shifts the balance of probablities considerably.
    - jacksonkmarley 5y ago
      I don't have an opinion on what the "it's not caused by lyme" camp rely on, but the wikipedia page complained about above actually already references another study that found spirochetes in animals after antibiotic treatment. No doubt the language in that wikipedia page is pretty triggering if you already believe chronic lyme disease is a thing though.
      - inter_netuser 5y ago
        The human study was literally done because denial of chronic lyme persisted despite multiple reliable studies in animal models. It's quite disgusting and begets further questions as to why such attitudes towards Lyme exist in the first place.

computer23 5y ago

Inter_netuser: That Frontiers paper is about as reliable as Big Foot hunters claiming they finally found him. The authors Brian Fallon and Monica Embers have been trying to prove chronic Lyme beliefs for many years. They are funded by their antiscience movement: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4489928/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4489928/ The Frontiers paper is a single case report that admits that the woman's Lyme ELISA (and hence total antibodies to Lyme) was negative when she started experiencing dementia. Without antibodies against Lyme, it would be a mistake to claim that she had "chronic Lyme" (which isn't real regardless.) The paper is consistent with someone who had lyme disease (a not-uncommon illness) and then years later was diagnosed with dementia, but you can't say Lyme caused the dementia. There is a scientific consensus against chronic Lyme based on decades of research. It's disturbing that chronic Lyme has become a dangerous social phenomenon based on conspiracy theories, fake diagnoses, and fake treatments. https://www.thecut.com/2019/07/what-happens-when-lyme-disease-becomes-an-identity.html https://www.thecut.com/2019/07/what-happens-when-lyme-diseas...

inter_netuser 5y ago
The study contains rather painfully obvious images of the pathogen under the microscope in the brain/spine. Seems your assertion here is that a professor of immunology at Tulane has committed fraud. That is a very serious accusation and the onus is on you to prove that. Do you have any evidence? Can you point me to any histology experts that have disputed these findings? 1. Was the slide image in the study real? 2. Was pathogen visible in the slice? 3. Why is there a pathogen in the brain several decades later?