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I don't know about Poland, but Ukraine is certainly not a democracy. Starting from the fact that the presidents are appointed by oligarchs (you may call it a co

I don't know about Poland, but Ukraine is certainly not a democracy. Starting from the fact that the presidents are appointed by oligarchs (you may call it a conspiracy theory, but it's true), the country is plagued by corruption. Ending with the fact that current president and his party are closing media of opposing parties (so much for "freedom of speech"). Nor does it help the Ukraine. All the industry was destroyed in the last 30 years. And agriculture is not enough: if you seed all available land of Ukraine, it would produce only about $40 bln of agricultural products, while Ukraine yearly imports from abroad are $60 bln. The country is unsustainable, it would eventually collapse. It's not the only country in the world that consumes more than it produces, but other countries have some kind of advantages allowing them to subsist while being netto importers. E.g. USA also consumes more than it produces, but it can freely print world reserve currency and buy whatever it needs. If someone objects, it has most expensive army with bases all over the world to suppress any discontent. Ukraine doesn't have a single possible way out. Eventually people that have any skills and energy will migrate to Europe/Russia/other countries (I was constantly surprised how many there're Ukrainians working in every part of the world - even the most remote ones), existing population will wither. There's a conspiracy theory that Ukrainian government is afraid to organize population census (the last one was long time ago), because they know that results will be unpleasantly surprising.

drran 5y ago
> I don't know about Poland, but Ukraine It looks like you know nothing about Ukraine too.
prehistoricdog 5y ago
typical Russian imperialistic brainwashed conclusions. I'm sorry. I'm not going to discuss all of your wrong assumptions, just mentioning "closing media". Do you know the narrative those media were spreading? Do you know who is Medvedchuk? These media were pro-russia propagandists.
- anticodon 5y ago
  But am I wrong in the assessment of the economical situation and population decline in Ukraine? Am I wrong that all the industry in Ukraine was destroyed (aviation, shipbuilding, cars and trucks, etc)? Am I wrong that energy consumption in Ukraine is declining (means that industry and/or population are declining)?
  - MagnumOpus 5y ago
    > am I wrong in the assessment of the economical situation and population decline in Ukraine Yes you are. You showed (without evidence but let's assume) that $40bn of agricultural exports don't cover the $60 of Ukraine imports. Only 15% of people there work in agriculture. The other 85% of workers are just as capable of creating value for export. > Am I wrong that all the industry in Ukraine was destroyed Yes, and it is so obvious a lie that it strains credulity. Even just ignoring the well known mining/iron ore/iron/steel/pipe industry that has at least a dozen well known big companies. Plus of course Ukraine manufactures a lot of other things from cars to armament to confectionary. And if it came to an export/currency collapse people would and could adapt and buy the local food/cars/trucks (even if they don't have the same quality or variety as foreign goods).
    - 71a54xd 5y ago
      Many of my friends who are from Ukraine actually prefer to work in St. Petersburg and Moscow due to better opportunities and higher pay. Granted, compared to the US Russia's economy is horrendous, but the opportunities are still greater than what is available in Ukraine, at least as perceived by 20-something aged Ukrainians.
ud_visa 5y ago
Ukraine is poor. It is corrupted. Its population is declining. It has a chance still: there is a social demand for a different lifestyle and organisation of the state, which eventually will solve many problems Ukraine has and will make it a place not worse that any other East-European country. Now it's on the way of building democracy and it may fail without help, unfortunately. What we need from the West is constant pressure on our establishment to setup effective institutions, especially in the anti-corruption domain. Source: I'm a Ukrainian still staying in Ukraine because I believe the above is true. Otherwise I'd move to EU with very little effort or to Russia with no effort at all.

drran 5y ago

> I don't know about Poland, but Ukraine It looks like you know nothing about Ukraine too.

prehistoricdog 5y ago

typical Russian imperialistic brainwashed conclusions. I'm sorry. I'm not going to discuss all of your wrong assumptions, just mentioning "closing media". Do you know the narrative those media were spreading? Do you know who is Medvedchuk? These media were pro-russia propagandists.

anticodon 5y ago
But am I wrong in the assessment of the economical situation and population decline in Ukraine? Am I wrong that all the industry in Ukraine was destroyed (aviation, shipbuilding, cars and trucks, etc)? Am I wrong that energy consumption in Ukraine is declining (means that industry and/or population are declining)?
- MagnumOpus 5y ago
  > am I wrong in the assessment of the economical situation and population decline in Ukraine Yes you are. You showed (without evidence but let's assume) that $40bn of agricultural exports don't cover the $60 of Ukraine imports. Only 15% of people there work in agriculture. The other 85% of workers are just as capable of creating value for export. > Am I wrong that all the industry in Ukraine was destroyed Yes, and it is so obvious a lie that it strains credulity. Even just ignoring the well known mining/iron ore/iron/steel/pipe industry that has at least a dozen well known big companies. Plus of course Ukraine manufactures a lot of other things from cars to armament to confectionary. And if it came to an export/currency collapse people would and could adapt and buy the local food/cars/trucks (even if they don't have the same quality or variety as foreign goods).
  - 71a54xd 5y ago
    Many of my friends who are from Ukraine actually prefer to work in St. Petersburg and Moscow due to better opportunities and higher pay. Granted, compared to the US Russia's economy is horrendous, but the opportunities are still greater than what is available in Ukraine, at least as perceived by 20-something aged Ukrainians.

ud_visa 5y ago

Ukraine is poor. It is corrupted. Its population is declining. It has a chance still: there is a social demand for a different lifestyle and organisation of the state, which eventually will solve many problems Ukraine has and will make it a place not worse that any other East-European country. Now it's on the way of building democracy and it may fail without help, unfortunately. What we need from the West is constant pressure on our establishment to setup effective institutions, especially in the anti-corruption domain. Source: I'm a Ukrainian still staying in Ukraine because I believe the above is true. Otherwise I'd move to EU with very little effort or to Russia with no effort at all.