3 ms·

It's worth noting that at least in recent versions, the in game formulas have been getting simplified. For instance armor used to give you both AC and GDR (guar

by eeegnu 5y ago

It's worth noting that at least in recent versions, the in game formulas have been getting simplified. For instance armor used to give you both AC and GDR (guaranteed damage resistance), whereas now GDR is a direct function of AC regardless of its source. Similarly DEX now more directly influences Evasion, whereas before it was artificially capped to give very diminishing returns past ~25 DEX, and now allows you to get very high Evasion.

dota_fanatic 5y ago
That's good to hear. I hope they keep going down that path. To refer to another game, in any of the Soulsborne games (Dark Souls, Bloodborne, ...) by From Software, as you level up you get to contribute points towards stats which affects your ability to wield weapons and how much damage they do. You don't even have to equip them, the game gives you a diff of what your new damage will be along various dimensions (physical, magic, etc) as well as how your "equip load" is affected just by inspecting it. Although this doesn't necessarily mean you can understand the difference between a really heavy, highly damaging weapon vs a fast weapon, by reading a wiki or by playing through once or twice you'll have a very good base understanding of what different weapons bring to the table and how your character drives those strengths/weaknesses. With DCSS? Well... how much damage you do is going to depend on whether or not you're wearing a shield (what size?), what kind of armor you're wearing if any, how much you've trained for that weapon class, how much STR you have, what bonuses it has, and what bonuses you have from gear. Then RNG will play a significant role on top of that. Maybe RNG applies twice, once for your swing, once for their defense? It's been too long, I can't say confidently. I realize it's challenging for the interface design because everything is already tight but I'm sure there's a solution. If I equip this armor/weapon/jewelry, how fast will I be attacking compared to now? What will my damage distribution look like before enemy resistances? Same with allocating stats, please give feedback in the form of derived data that is closer to the thing I care about (surviving).
harpiaharpyja 5y ago
I don't think the problem is complexity as much as it is opaqueness. I have played other games that are also very complex but yet still very enjoyable because the complexity is open to be examined.
- kibwen 5y ago
  The opacity is a remnant from the game as it was designed twenty years ago, which took cues from roguelikes of the day such as NetHack (which is famous for its opacity). The developers of Stone Soup have spent a few decades improving the interface with the goal that you shouldn't need any external wikis or resources to win: all info should be in the game itself. For example, a relatively recent-ish change is that you can inspect enemies and see a list of all possible spells that they can cast, along with estimates of the damage that each spell will do. A much older feature is the in-game help menu, which is impressively thorough and will give you a high-level overview of every monster, spell, stat, ability, item, god, level, status effect, and so on (although it's not necessarily super-detailed when it comes to obscure things like calculating damage; simplifying these calculations is the only way to go).

by eeegnu 5y ago

dota_fanatic 5y ago

That's good to hear. I hope they keep going down that path. To refer to another game, in any of the Soulsborne games (Dark Souls, Bloodborne, ...) by From Software, as you level up you get to contribute points towards stats which affects your ability to wield weapons and how much damage they do. You don't even have to equip them, the game gives you a diff of what your new damage will be along various dimensions (physical, magic, etc) as well as how your "equip load" is affected just by inspecting it. Although this doesn't necessarily mean you can understand the difference between a really heavy, highly damaging weapon vs a fast weapon, by reading a wiki or by playing through once or twice you'll have a very good base understanding of what different weapons bring to the table and how your character drives those strengths/weaknesses. With DCSS? Well... how much damage you do is going to depend on whether or not you're wearing a shield (what size?), what kind of armor you're wearing if any, how much you've trained for that weapon class, how much STR you have, what bonuses it has, and what bonuses you have from gear. Then RNG will play a significant role on top of that. Maybe RNG applies twice, once for your swing, once for their defense? It's been too long, I can't say confidently. I realize it's challenging for the interface design because everything is already tight but I'm sure there's a solution. If I equip this armor/weapon/jewelry, how fast will I be attacking compared to now? What will my damage distribution look like before enemy resistances? Same with allocating stats, please give feedback in the form of derived data that is closer to the thing I care about (surviving).

harpiaharpyja 5y ago

I don't think the problem is complexity as much as it is opaqueness. I have played other games that are also very complex but yet still very enjoyable because the complexity is open to be examined.

kibwen 5y ago
The opacity is a remnant from the game as it was designed twenty years ago, which took cues from roguelikes of the day such as NetHack (which is famous for its opacity). The developers of Stone Soup have spent a few decades improving the interface with the goal that you shouldn't need any external wikis or resources to win: all info should be in the game itself. For example, a relatively recent-ish change is that you can inspect enemies and see a list of all possible spells that they can cast, along with estimates of the damage that each spell will do. A much older feature is the in-game help menu, which is impressively thorough and will give you a high-level overview of every monster, spell, stat, ability, item, god, level, status effect, and so on (although it's not necessarily super-detailed when it comes to obscure things like calculating damage; simplifying these calculations is the only way to go).