8 ms·

What I'm curious about is: what happens now? When everyone starts realizing that vaccines and masks can't fully contain a spread, what's the next logical step

by oliv__ 5y ago

What I'm curious about is: what happens now? When everyone starts realizing that vaccines and masks can't fully contain a spread, what's the next logical step to take? Are people going to insist that you keep wearing your mask, take booster shots and live in fear for the next 50 years or are we going to collectively change our mindset from "Zero COVID" to accepting that COVID is just another risk factor in the world and move on?

maxerickson 5y ago
Getting booster shots to lessen the risk to people that are at greater risk from the virus isn't a huge imposition. We should make it easier for more people to do it (people that don't have sick leave or aren't sure they can take it and so on).
- oliv__ 5y ago
  > Getting booster shots to lessen the risk to people that are at greater risk from the virus isn't a huge imposition. You may think so. I politely disagree.
  - cdrini 5y ago
    Care to contribute to the conversation and explain why? At risk populations do get eg the flu shot.
    - Gibbon1 5y ago
      I used to joke that I gotten so many tetanus shots that I can cure it by laying on of hands. But consider women, they have all sort of intrusive health related stuff imposed on them. They get pap smears, mammograms, then consider all the things that happen with pregnancy. And they just roll with it. Thing though, when I was reading about potential vaccines spring so 2020 people that knew what they were talking about were unsure if a third dose would be needed. Because there are a number of vaccines that require three doses. Also I've come to be suspicious of any argument that includes the demand that we not 'panic' or 'live in fear'. I'm beginning to see nothing but masculine anxiety/panic in that.
lamontcg 5y ago
Hospitals are collapsing again, we can't ignore it. Get people vaccinated. Or else we're going to wind up "flattening the curve" again until we finally burn through enough dead people that everyone is effectively either recovered or immunized and then the endemic burden should be an order of magnitude lower. And hospitals only have so much throughput going through the ICU and into the morgue that they can sustain, which is limited by burned-out human resources, that have been strained and quitting during the pandemic. If you want to totally let it rip and destroy the ICUs then you better drive really fucking carefully for a few months and hope you don't get a poor diagnosis of something or other fairly nasty. Have a bit of a chat with your appendix and make sure its feeling happy and doesn't blow up.
- twelve40 5y ago
  > Get people vaccinated Repeating this line doesn't really work anymore. I vaccinated myself and my whole family months ago, my county has ~80% full vaccination rate, anyone and everyone who could and wanted to, got a shot already. Yet, there are 90 million people in this country that don't give a shit and will not vaccinate. Worse, soon the vaccine will probably wear out, and then the whole country will have to be convinced all over again to get a booster shot, who knows how many times, too. And then there is stuff like TFA that says that although vaccines are the best we've got so far, vaccinated people still end up in the hospital. So although I'll personally line up for any booster shots the moment they become available, the reality is probably going to get much more complicated than vaccinating everyone and moving on.
  - grepfru_it 5y ago
    >don’t give a shit and will not vaccinate Why would they if they just recovered from covid?
- deadbolt 5y ago
  I feel at this point hospitals should just triage the willfully unvaccinated covid patients behind all other emergencies. Possibly set aside X number of beds for covid patients, the rest of the ICU beds are for everything else. Out of covid beds? Well you've gotta wait for someone to die and then they'll see you. They chose to "not live in fear", they can live - and possibly die - with the consequences.
zuminator 5y ago
There's an airbag in my car, but I also wear a seatbelt, obey the posted speed limits, use turn signals, stop at red traffic lights, and abstain from consuming alcohol while driving. This isn't "living in fear," it's observing reasonable caution in my daily life. I don't expect there will be "Zero accidents," but I want to avoid being injured and avoid causing injury to others. And I expect I'll keep taking these precautions for the next 50 years if I live that long. It just never ends. It's psychologically exhausting, come to think of it. But wait, now you have me thinking, what if speed limits, traffic lights and all that other stuff were optional? Shouldn't they be? I mean, if I want to risk dying in a car accident, that's my business, and if others are concerned about my reckless driving, isn't that what their own seatbelts are for? I'm not forcing them to drink behind the wheel, why should they force me to not drink? Bottom line, if they want to live in endless fear of me and other freedom loving drivers, I won't stop them, they can just stay off the roads for all I care. So why should there be any safety mandates...for anything? My state governor should follow in the footsteps of DeSantis and Abbott, and make it illegal for localities to even impose speed limits.
- bingohbangoh 5y ago
  Wearing a mask is not a small ask. If it was, attendance at bars, restaurants, shows, etc. would not fall off a cliff when imposed.
  - me_me_me 5y ago
    > Wearing a mask is not a small ask. Of course it is, I have been wearing mask for 2 years now. And I am wearing glasses. Is washing your hands too much to ask too? > If it was, attendance at bars, restaurants, shows, etc. That was due to social distancing and lockdowns, not masks.
    - benttoothpaste 5y ago
      > Is washing your hands too much to ask too? For (too) many people washing hands is indeed too much to ask...
tkzed49 5y ago
I'm tired of hearing "living in fear" equated with taking basic precautions to prevent the spread of disease, on HN of all places. It's just a dog whistle.
- zpeti 5y ago
  I'm tired of hearing that masks don't have consequences and are just basic precautions. I for one feel it massively reduces the quality of my interactions and trust in people. I find it much harder to communicate properly. The long term consequences of this are not taken into account. And I'm vaccinated, everyone in my country who wants to be vaccinated is. Why should I reduce the quality of my life for people who made a choice and took a risk? I actually don't mind that they made this choice, it's their risk. But don't destroy my quality of life for people who knowingly are taking a risk on their end.
  - GekkePrutser 5y ago
    There's also people like me who have serious PTSS phenomenons with masks (for me caused by nearly suffocating several times when I was an infant). I hate it when people call it 'a small ask'. Living for the rest of my life with masking is just not an option. It's manageable during the crisis but we can't give up on finding a real solution and keep them forever.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > And I'm vaccinated, everyone in my country who wants to be vaccinated is. Why should I reduce the quality of my life for people who made a choice and took a risk? Vaccination isn’t a magic talisman against infection, or against illness if infected, or against transmitting the disease if infected. It reduces the likelihood of each, all other things being equal, but it isn't a guarantee against any of them (and is less so against Delta, “Delta Plus", and apparently Lambda than other strains so far. Masking further reduces both inbound and outbound transmission, and is just a basic precaution.
    - zpeti 5y ago
dragonwriter 5y ago
> Are people going to insist that you keep wearing your mask, take booster shots and live in fear I get a flu shot every year and wear a seatbelt when I drive. Not living in fear of either. Taking reasonable precautions doesn't involve living in fear. > or are we going to collectively change our mindset from "Zero COVID" to accepting that COVID is just another risk factor in the world and move on? Look at the places (e.g., much of the US South) with high resistance to protective measures and the current status of the healthcare systems. Are we going to accept that being a permanent or at least frequently recurrent state worldwide and accept the COVID and non-COVID deaths from exhausting ICU space, and the high burnout we’ve seen in the healthcare field? Are we going to radically expand healthcare expenditures to expand capacity and attract/retain people in the field with that as the normal condition?
- NonContro 5y ago
  Florida has a higher age 65+ vaccination rate than California or New York: https://www.mayoclinic.org/coronavirus-covid-19/vaccine-tracker https://www.mayoclinic.org/coronavirus-covid-19/vaccine-trac... Respiratory viruses peak earlier before Winter in the tropics (ie. the South USA) whereas they peak during the Winter in the North. Southern USA will peak and fall, and then this Winter you'll see the same thing in the Northern USA. Its just the seasonality of colds/flus which has been known for decades. Be prepared because this Winter seasonal peak will be blamed on a new 'variant', and used to push either new lockdowns/restrictions, or booster shots.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > Florida has a higher age 65+ vaccination rate than California or New York No, California has 97% and Florida has 93%; California also has higher age 18-64 and 12-17 vaccination rates [0], has a number of local jurisdictions that have resumed indoor masking mandates (including many school districts for in-person education, with many of those that haven’t adopted mandates having parent-option virtual academies available) rather than a state government attempting to prohibit mask mandates. Countermeasures are more than just vaccines. But, in any case, you didn’t answer the question: Are you willing to accept the degree of healthcare overload and the effects it is having on healthcare workers as a permanent or at least frequently recurrent state and accept the COVID and non-COVID deaths from exhausting ICU space, and the high burnout we’ve seen in the healthcare field? Is your plan to radically expand healthcare expenditures to expand capacity and attract/retain people in the field with that as the normal condition? Or are you willing to see the same load with dwindling capacity? EDIT: forgot the link. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/covid-19-vaccine-doses.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/covid-19-vaccine...
bakul 5y ago
Perhaps this will be a spur to invent a better mask? I believe fear will subside as over time most people tend to adjust to new realities.
- oseityphelysiol 5y ago
  What you should hope to be invented is better vaccines/treatment.
  - voakbasda 5y ago
    We have the vaccine/treatment. We lack a population willing to embrace it, at sufficient levels to make a meaningful difference.
    - jimmygrapes 5y ago
      We have a similarly large population full of so much vitriol that it wouldn't matter what the topic is, instinct is to rebel. The first step is for people advocating for vaccines to stop this hateful bile, and with social media etc. it just ain't gonna happen.
calyth2018 5y ago
The shot still generally does a great job at keeping the vaccinated from hospitalized. We're already burning out our primary care enough for some to leave the profession, or worse. Just because COVID is another risk factor, it doesn't mean we stop taking measures against it. The flu's a risk factor, yet we take flu shots, and don't go out french kissing strangers who's coughing, sneezing and having a fever.
gilbetron 5y ago
We had a small chance of getting rid of covid if we had gotten nearly everyone, 90%+, vaccinated. That didn't happen, the politicization of the vaccine was insane, and so now we are stuck with covid. What does this mean? It means we are all going to get covid. Repeatedly. It is a new seasonal illness that will be with us, absent some magical technology. It is (or will be) endemic. https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/features/what-will-it-be-like-when-covid-19-becomes-endemic/ https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/features/what-will-it-be-l... The point of the vaccination now is the same thing as always, to minimize the impact on society. Less hospitalizations and death, less days of our life spent ill, less misery. People 100% should still get vaccinated, it is deeply stupid not to. It is particularly important the next several months as delta rips through the remaining unvaccinated population (which include those that can't, including under 12 year olds), because we want to avoid filling up hospitals and making our health care quit. For the same reason, we should wear masks and maybe try to reduce the time spent breathing each others air a bit. But the only ones that should live in fear are those unvaccinated that have never had covid and probably the old. But managing fear is something the old has to do anyway, comes with age ;)
- hknapp 5y ago
  > We had a small chance of getting rid of covid if we had gotten nearly everyone, 90%+, vaccinated. By small chance, you mean 0% chance, right? Variants were already spreading by the time any vaccines were available. There are also billions of people who will likely not be vaccinated within the next couple years or so.
  - gilbetron 5y ago
    We had a non-zero chance of stopping covid, even considering vaccines would take a couple of years to get to everyone, it didn't matter (much) if variants happened. The chance of zero covid comes from vaccines coming out fast enough to drop the R value below 1.0 for a significant amount of time for the virus to go away. However, in hindsight, with animal populations being able to get infected, I think it probably was zero, although that gets well beyond my armchair "skills" ;)
- 5y ago
hedgedoops2 5y ago
If our mindset had been "zero covid", we'd not have gotten the mutants and the v1 vaccine would have driven it extinct. Please dont abuse the name of a strategy that was never implemented. What governments did was 'keep incidence below X by means of lockdowns', and 'relax restrictions if incidence is below X'. This is a simple control system that keeps the incidence at X. Not below X. Unfortunately X was chosen via hospital bed capacity, so it was quite high, about 500 cases / 100k per week. High enough to generate mutants. With X=5, the same lockdown measures would have been in effect for much the same time (they'd have been started a few weeks earlier). Also, for very low values of X, you might have been able to get away with just contact tracing or travel controls instead of lockdowns, so the average lockdown intensity over time, under zero covid, could have been lower than what we had. The point of zero covid is to have less lockdown! Anyway, the idea was to buy time until you get the vaccine. Zero covid was never intended to be an indefinite duration program. This is what zero covid really means (low X). I agree with everything else you said.
utucuro 5y ago
The article mentions vaccination, but it also mentions that Israel is going to have to go back to masks and social distancing. It is my understanding that this situation happened partially because they stopped wearing masks... There was a prior study that mentioned the efficiency of the vaccine alone was somewhere in the 60-65 percent range without masks for the BioNTech vaccine, about a 33% drop in efficiency is nothing to laugh at.

by oliv__ 5y ago

maxerickson 5y ago

Getting booster shots to lessen the risk to people that are at greater risk from the virus isn't a huge imposition. We should make it easier for more people to do it (people that don't have sick leave or aren't sure they can take it and so on).

oliv__ 5y ago
> Getting booster shots to lessen the risk to people that are at greater risk from the virus isn't a huge imposition. You may think so. I politely disagree.
- cdrini 5y ago
  Care to contribute to the conversation and explain why? At risk populations do get eg the flu shot.
  - Gibbon1 5y ago
    I used to joke that I gotten so many tetanus shots that I can cure it by laying on of hands. But consider women, they have all sort of intrusive health related stuff imposed on them. They get pap smears, mammograms, then consider all the things that happen with pregnancy. And they just roll with it. Thing though, when I was reading about potential vaccines spring so 2020 people that knew what they were talking about were unsure if a third dose would be needed. Because there are a number of vaccines that require three doses. Also I've come to be suspicious of any argument that includes the demand that we not 'panic' or 'live in fear'. I'm beginning to see nothing but masculine anxiety/panic in that.

lamontcg 5y ago

Hospitals are collapsing again, we can't ignore it. Get people vaccinated. Or else we're going to wind up "flattening the curve" again until we finally burn through enough dead people that everyone is effectively either recovered or immunized and then the endemic burden should be an order of magnitude lower. And hospitals only have so much throughput going through the ICU and into the morgue that they can sustain, which is limited by burned-out human resources, that have been strained and quitting during the pandemic. If you want to totally let it rip and destroy the ICUs then you better drive really fucking carefully for a few months and hope you don't get a poor diagnosis of something or other fairly nasty. Have a bit of a chat with your appendix and make sure its feeling happy and doesn't blow up.

twelve40 5y ago
> Get people vaccinated Repeating this line doesn't really work anymore. I vaccinated myself and my whole family months ago, my county has ~80% full vaccination rate, anyone and everyone who could and wanted to, got a shot already. Yet, there are 90 million people in this country that don't give a shit and will not vaccinate. Worse, soon the vaccine will probably wear out, and then the whole country will have to be convinced all over again to get a booster shot, who knows how many times, too. And then there is stuff like TFA that says that although vaccines are the best we've got so far, vaccinated people still end up in the hospital. So although I'll personally line up for any booster shots the moment they become available, the reality is probably going to get much more complicated than vaccinating everyone and moving on.
- grepfru_it 5y ago
  >don’t give a shit and will not vaccinate Why would they if they just recovered from covid?
deadbolt 5y ago
I feel at this point hospitals should just triage the willfully unvaccinated covid patients behind all other emergencies. Possibly set aside X number of beds for covid patients, the rest of the ICU beds are for everything else. Out of covid beds? Well you've gotta wait for someone to die and then they'll see you. They chose to "not live in fear", they can live - and possibly die - with the consequences.

zuminator 5y ago

There's an airbag in my car, but I also wear a seatbelt, obey the posted speed limits, use turn signals, stop at red traffic lights, and abstain from consuming alcohol while driving. This isn't "living in fear," it's observing reasonable caution in my daily life. I don't expect there will be "Zero accidents," but I want to avoid being injured and avoid causing injury to others. And I expect I'll keep taking these precautions for the next 50 years if I live that long. It just never ends. It's psychologically exhausting, come to think of it. But wait, now you have me thinking, what if speed limits, traffic lights and all that other stuff were optional? Shouldn't they be? I mean, if I want to risk dying in a car accident, that's my business, and if others are concerned about my reckless driving, isn't that what their own seatbelts are for? I'm not forcing them to drink behind the wheel, why should they force me to not drink? Bottom line, if they want to live in endless fear of me and other freedom loving drivers, I won't stop them, they can just stay off the roads for all I care. So why should there be any safety mandates...for anything? My state governor should follow in the footsteps of DeSantis and Abbott, and make it illegal for localities to even impose speed limits.

bingohbangoh 5y ago
Wearing a mask is not a small ask. If it was, attendance at bars, restaurants, shows, etc. would not fall off a cliff when imposed.
- me_me_me 5y ago
  > Wearing a mask is not a small ask. Of course it is, I have been wearing mask for 2 years now. And I am wearing glasses. Is washing your hands too much to ask too? > If it was, attendance at bars, restaurants, shows, etc. That was due to social distancing and lockdowns, not masks.
  - benttoothpaste 5y ago
    > Is washing your hands too much to ask too? For (too) many people washing hands is indeed too much to ask...

tkzed49 5y ago

I'm tired of hearing "living in fear" equated with taking basic precautions to prevent the spread of disease, on HN of all places. It's just a dog whistle.

zpeti 5y ago
I'm tired of hearing that masks don't have consequences and are just basic precautions. I for one feel it massively reduces the quality of my interactions and trust in people. I find it much harder to communicate properly. The long term consequences of this are not taken into account. And I'm vaccinated, everyone in my country who wants to be vaccinated is. Why should I reduce the quality of my life for people who made a choice and took a risk? I actually don't mind that they made this choice, it's their risk. But don't destroy my quality of life for people who knowingly are taking a risk on their end.
- GekkePrutser 5y ago
  There's also people like me who have serious PTSS phenomenons with masks (for me caused by nearly suffocating several times when I was an infant). I hate it when people call it 'a small ask'. Living for the rest of my life with masking is just not an option. It's manageable during the crisis but we can't give up on finding a real solution and keep them forever.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > And I'm vaccinated, everyone in my country who wants to be vaccinated is. Why should I reduce the quality of my life for people who made a choice and took a risk? Vaccination isn’t a magic talisman against infection, or against illness if infected, or against transmitting the disease if infected. It reduces the likelihood of each, all other things being equal, but it isn't a guarantee against any of them (and is less so against Delta, “Delta Plus", and apparently Lambda than other strains so far. Masking further reduces both inbound and outbound transmission, and is just a basic precaution.
  - zpeti 5y ago

dragonwriter 5y ago

> Are people going to insist that you keep wearing your mask, take booster shots and live in fear I get a flu shot every year and wear a seatbelt when I drive. Not living in fear of either. Taking reasonable precautions doesn't involve living in fear. > or are we going to collectively change our mindset from "Zero COVID" to accepting that COVID is just another risk factor in the world and move on? Look at the places (e.g., much of the US South) with high resistance to protective measures and the current status of the healthcare systems. Are we going to accept that being a permanent or at least frequently recurrent state worldwide and accept the COVID and non-COVID deaths from exhausting ICU space, and the high burnout we’ve seen in the healthcare field? Are we going to radically expand healthcare expenditures to expand capacity and attract/retain people in the field with that as the normal condition?

NonContro 5y ago
Florida has a higher age 65+ vaccination rate than California or New York: https://www.mayoclinic.org/coronavirus-covid-19/vaccine-tracker https://www.mayoclinic.org/coronavirus-covid-19/vaccine-trac... Respiratory viruses peak earlier before Winter in the tropics (ie. the South USA) whereas they peak during the Winter in the North. Southern USA will peak and fall, and then this Winter you'll see the same thing in the Northern USA. Its just the seasonality of colds/flus which has been known for decades. Be prepared because this Winter seasonal peak will be blamed on a new 'variant', and used to push either new lockdowns/restrictions, or booster shots.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Florida has a higher age 65+ vaccination rate than California or New York No, California has 97% and Florida has 93%; California also has higher age 18-64 and 12-17 vaccination rates [0], has a number of local jurisdictions that have resumed indoor masking mandates (including many school districts for in-person education, with many of those that haven’t adopted mandates having parent-option virtual academies available) rather than a state government attempting to prohibit mask mandates. Countermeasures are more than just vaccines. But, in any case, you didn’t answer the question: Are you willing to accept the degree of healthcare overload and the effects it is having on healthcare workers as a permanent or at least frequently recurrent state and accept the COVID and non-COVID deaths from exhausting ICU space, and the high burnout we’ve seen in the healthcare field? Is your plan to radically expand healthcare expenditures to expand capacity and attract/retain people in the field with that as the normal condition? Or are you willing to see the same load with dwindling capacity? EDIT: forgot the link. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/covid-19-vaccine-doses.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/covid-19-vaccine...

bakul 5y ago

Perhaps this will be a spur to invent a better mask? I believe fear will subside as over time most people tend to adjust to new realities.

oseityphelysiol 5y ago
What you should hope to be invented is better vaccines/treatment.
- voakbasda 5y ago
  We have the vaccine/treatment. We lack a population willing to embrace it, at sufficient levels to make a meaningful difference.
  - jimmygrapes 5y ago
    We have a similarly large population full of so much vitriol that it wouldn't matter what the topic is, instinct is to rebel. The first step is for people advocating for vaccines to stop this hateful bile, and with social media etc. it just ain't gonna happen.

calyth2018 5y ago

The shot still generally does a great job at keeping the vaccinated from hospitalized. We're already burning out our primary care enough for some to leave the profession, or worse. Just because COVID is another risk factor, it doesn't mean we stop taking measures against it. The flu's a risk factor, yet we take flu shots, and don't go out french kissing strangers who's coughing, sneezing and having a fever.

gilbetron 5y ago

We had a small chance of getting rid of covid if we had gotten nearly everyone, 90%+, vaccinated. That didn't happen, the politicization of the vaccine was insane, and so now we are stuck with covid. What does this mean? It means we are all going to get covid. Repeatedly. It is a new seasonal illness that will be with us, absent some magical technology. It is (or will be) endemic. https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/features/what-will-it-be-like-when-covid-19-becomes-endemic/ https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/features/what-will-it-be-l... The point of the vaccination now is the same thing as always, to minimize the impact on society. Less hospitalizations and death, less days of our life spent ill, less misery. People 100% should still get vaccinated, it is deeply stupid not to. It is particularly important the next several months as delta rips through the remaining unvaccinated population (which include those that can't, including under 12 year olds), because we want to avoid filling up hospitals and making our health care quit. For the same reason, we should wear masks and maybe try to reduce the time spent breathing each others air a bit. But the only ones that should live in fear are those unvaccinated that have never had covid and probably the old. But managing fear is something the old has to do anyway, comes with age ;)

hknapp 5y ago
> We had a small chance of getting rid of covid if we had gotten nearly everyone, 90%+, vaccinated. By small chance, you mean 0% chance, right? Variants were already spreading by the time any vaccines were available. There are also billions of people who will likely not be vaccinated within the next couple years or so.
- gilbetron 5y ago
  We had a non-zero chance of stopping covid, even considering vaccines would take a couple of years to get to everyone, it didn't matter (much) if variants happened. The chance of zero covid comes from vaccines coming out fast enough to drop the R value below 1.0 for a significant amount of time for the virus to go away. However, in hindsight, with animal populations being able to get infected, I think it probably was zero, although that gets well beyond my armchair "skills" ;)
5y ago

hedgedoops2 5y ago

If our mindset had been "zero covid", we'd not have gotten the mutants and the v1 vaccine would have driven it extinct. Please dont abuse the name of a strategy that was never implemented. What governments did was 'keep incidence below X by means of lockdowns', and 'relax restrictions if incidence is below X'. This is a simple control system that keeps the incidence at X. Not below X. Unfortunately X was chosen via hospital bed capacity, so it was quite high, about 500 cases / 100k per week. High enough to generate mutants. With X=5, the same lockdown measures would have been in effect for much the same time (they'd have been started a few weeks earlier). Also, for very low values of X, you might have been able to get away with just contact tracing or travel controls instead of lockdowns, so the average lockdown intensity over time, under zero covid, could have been lower than what we had. The point of zero covid is to have less lockdown! Anyway, the idea was to buy time until you get the vaccine. Zero covid was never intended to be an indefinite duration program. This is what zero covid really means (low X). I agree with everything else you said.

utucuro 5y ago

The article mentions vaccination, but it also mentions that Israel is going to have to go back to masks and social distancing. It is my understanding that this situation happened partially because they stopped wearing masks... There was a prior study that mentioned the efficiency of the vaccine alone was somewhere in the 60-65 percent range without masks for the BioNTech vaccine, about a 33% drop in efficiency is nothing to laugh at.