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Welcome and glad to have you. And while you're not a shill, I find your site misguided, in overly relying on equating natural, traditional diets with healthy, l

by bfe 15y ago

Welcome and glad to have you. And while you're not a shill, I find your site misguided, in overly relying on equating natural, traditional diets with healthy, leading you to some recommendations that are orthogonal to healthiness, like fermented veggies and sprouted grains, and some that are unhelpful to health, like red meat and butter. The people of Finland drastically improved their health metrics when they transitioned to a modern mainstream European diet away from their natural, traditional Finnish diet of lots of red meat and butter. Modern scientific findings, properly analyzed, are an astonishingly better guide to human health than any traditional collection of folk wisdom.

pyre 15y ago
> properly analyzed That's the catch.
jokull 15y ago
I haven't commented on Hacker News for a while now. But let me rake in the downvotes and say that this kind of answer is the reason I can't be bothered anymore. Let's face it, this is a geeky forum. And geeks just can't refrain from giving their opinions and facts. They only need to spend a night reading Wikipedia articles about nutrition to have the right to shit all over someones comments that are marginally overlapping on their new domain of expertise. The tone above, jesus christ. She wasn't even asking for an opinion. Worst community ever. The arrogance that comes with smarts.
- palish 15y ago
  I agree that HN would be much, much nicer if people would just show a little respect.
- bfe 15y ago
  When someone takes it on herself to actively evangelize an analysis she acknowledges is controversial, she should expect to be treated like an adult and be presented with honest opposing views, in whatever venue she chooses to take part in. And I'd find a forum disappointing if its default ethic were to reaffirm to all its participants that their current coding knowledge, startup idea, or pseudoscientific views were equally valid and had no room for improvement by frank feedback. I'll let you get back to your much more civilized forums where people simply present their rational analysis and supporting evidence rather than tossing around exclamations of "shit" and "jesus christ" at other participants, especially as part of a call for civility. Oh wait.
- nollidge 15y ago
  > She wasn't even asking for an opinion. Bullshit. If you make your views publicly known, they are open to criticism. bfe was incisive but not uncivil. Your pious attitude and haughty implication that bfe's knowledge is only a result of an evening's browse through Wikipedia is far more offensive to me than anything he/she wrote.
adolph 15y ago
Citation please! Modern scientific findings, properly analyzed, are an astonishingly better guide to human health than any traditional collection of folk wisdom.
- bfe 15y ago
  Really? Um, which body of pre-modern folk wisdom relies on citations to evidence? To be fair there are a few, but their cited authorities of preference are scriptural. I cited a scientific review of large studies of specific health outcomes from specific dietary habits in my other reply, but that itself is the practice of science. If you don't find that explanatory power a convincing epistemological clue, there is no end to the venues more willing than HN to spend time debating the equal dignity of traditional folk wisdom with the scientific method - churches, humanities departments, newspaper op-ed pages, etc.
  - adolph 15y ago
    Originally I was just trolling you for making a bare assertion. After thinking about it a bit, sure, do you have any citations for "Modern scientific findings" being "astonishingly better" than "any traditional collection of folk wisdom" for the purpose of "human health?" First, I haven't made an assertion that folk wisdom relies on citations. My impression is that folk wisdom is generally broader than religion, but I won't bother you with a citation request for that assertion. "Modern scientific findings" appear to rely on citations and you provided one that says the traditional Mediterranean diet is associated with some positive health outcomes; the Finnish one, not so much. Here's one for you about the negative health affects of a modern science-derived diet and lifestyle on folks migrating from a traditional diet and lifestyle to a modern one. Type 2 (non-insulin-dependent) diabetes mellitus, migration and westernisation: The Tokelau Island Migrant study http://www.springerlink.com/content/u9693ul1q81474u9/ http://www.springerlink.com/content/u9693ul1q81474u9/ Summary. The migration of Tokelauans from a traditional atoll in the Pacific to urban New Zealand is associated with an increased prevalence and incidence of Type 2 (non-insulindependent) diabetes mellitus over the period 1968-1982. During the same period, a lesser but definite increase is seen among non-migrants in Tokelau. The age standardised prevalence rates rose from 7.5 and 11.7 to 10.8 and 19.9 per 100 respectively in the male and female migrants compared with an increase from 3.0 and 8.7 to 7.0 and 14.3 per 100 in the nonmigrant males and females respectively. The incidence of diabetes is shown to be consistently higher in the migrants compared to the non-migrants giving relative risks of 1.5 in males and 1.9 in females. The factors most likely contributing to this difference, are changes to a higher calorie, high protein diet, higher alcohol consumption, a greater weight gain and altered levels of physical activity in the migrants. A number of populations in the Pacific have been shown to have a low rate of diabetes in their traditional setting, but may have a genetic predisposition for diabetes which responds to factors in the urban industrialised environment and life-style. The social and economic changes taking place in Tokelau are also clearly increasing the risk of diabetes. To reverse these trends and prevent the development of complications of Type 2 diabetes, it will be important to institute preventive programmes and to follow up the population in both environments for long-term outcomes, including mortality.
bmj 15y ago
To add to adolph's comment, could you point a citation to back up this? And while you're not a shill, I find your site misguided, in overly relying on equating natural, traditional diets with healthy, leading you to some recommendations that are orthogonal to healthiness, like fermented veggies and sprouted grains, and some that are unhelpful to health, like red meat and butter. The people of Finland drastically improved their health metrics when they transitioned to a modern mainstream European diet away from their natural, traditional Finnish diet of lots of red meat and butter. Additionally, how does a "modern mainstream European diet" compare to a traditional Finnish diet? I've been reading Kristen's blog for a long time. I don't agree with everything I read, and I tend to be skeptical of strong opinions on either side of an equation. That said, I can't help but agree with the basic premise of the post: food producers are not entirely truthful about what's in the stuff they produce and we put into our bodies. And our health and producers' bottom lines do not always line up. For example, did you know that factory farmed chickens are fed arsenic, and that often ends in the meat you purchase from the supermarket[1]? And this went on for many years before the FDA put a stop to it? [1] http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=13793945 http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=13793945 EDIT: Fixed italics.
- bfe 15y ago
  I was thinking of a scientific study I read a couple years ago, the citation for which escapes me at the moment. How I long for the day when I can install the Google brain history page implant beta. But five seconds on the present-day Google uncovered both: (1) a Wikipedia page on Finnish cuisine that shows a picture of a butter-slathered pastry and mentions stuff about hunting, red meat, buttermilk, and fruits and vegetables being unavailable nine months out of the year until recently; and, also on the first page of results, (2) a scientific review paper in the Journal of the American College of Surgeons by an M.D.-Ph.D. Yale professor indicating that Finland has both the world's highest consumption of saturated fatty acids and the world's highest ischemic heart disease mortality rate, and the highest rate of myocardial infarction of any of the countries surveyed in another study; and that "it is generally established that the Finnish diet of fatty red meats, butter, and bread, is highly conducive to heart disease." The best part is, it's a review article that cites 64 other scientific articles, so you can follow up with those to learn more. Here you go, with my bonus url cruft: http://nutrilearning.com.ar/docs/articulos/interes/alimentos/AcOliva_saludcardiovascular.pdf http://nutrilearning.com.ar/docs/articulos/interes/alimentos... The study I had remembered reading, which I'll track down this weekend sometime when I'm not on Hacker News while getting ready to go to work, was more recent and shows new improvements in Finnish health metrics as they have moved away from their traditional diet and begun eating a lot more food from the rest of Europe. And I share your agreement with this particular post on Kristen's blog.

by bfe 15y ago

pyre 15y ago

> properly analyzed That's the catch.

jokull 15y ago

I haven't commented on Hacker News for a while now. But let me rake in the downvotes and say that this kind of answer is the reason I can't be bothered anymore. Let's face it, this is a geeky forum. And geeks just can't refrain from giving their opinions and facts. They only need to spend a night reading Wikipedia articles about nutrition to have the right to shit all over someones comments that are marginally overlapping on their new domain of expertise. The tone above, jesus christ. She wasn't even asking for an opinion. Worst community ever. The arrogance that comes with smarts.

palish 15y ago
I agree that HN would be much, much nicer if people would just show a little respect.
bfe 15y ago
When someone takes it on herself to actively evangelize an analysis she acknowledges is controversial, she should expect to be treated like an adult and be presented with honest opposing views, in whatever venue she chooses to take part in. And I'd find a forum disappointing if its default ethic were to reaffirm to all its participants that their current coding knowledge, startup idea, or pseudoscientific views were equally valid and had no room for improvement by frank feedback. I'll let you get back to your much more civilized forums where people simply present their rational analysis and supporting evidence rather than tossing around exclamations of "shit" and "jesus christ" at other participants, especially as part of a call for civility. Oh wait.
nollidge 15y ago
> She wasn't even asking for an opinion. Bullshit. If you make your views publicly known, they are open to criticism. bfe was incisive but not uncivil. Your pious attitude and haughty implication that bfe's knowledge is only a result of an evening's browse through Wikipedia is far more offensive to me than anything he/she wrote.

adolph 15y ago

Citation please! Modern scientific findings, properly analyzed, are an astonishingly better guide to human health than any traditional collection of folk wisdom.

bfe 15y ago
Really? Um, which body of pre-modern folk wisdom relies on citations to evidence? To be fair there are a few, but their cited authorities of preference are scriptural. I cited a scientific review of large studies of specific health outcomes from specific dietary habits in my other reply, but that itself is the practice of science. If you don't find that explanatory power a convincing epistemological clue, there is no end to the venues more willing than HN to spend time debating the equal dignity of traditional folk wisdom with the scientific method - churches, humanities departments, newspaper op-ed pages, etc.
- adolph 15y ago
  Originally I was just trolling you for making a bare assertion. After thinking about it a bit, sure, do you have any citations for "Modern scientific findings" being "astonishingly better" than "any traditional collection of folk wisdom" for the purpose of "human health?" First, I haven't made an assertion that folk wisdom relies on citations. My impression is that folk wisdom is generally broader than religion, but I won't bother you with a citation request for that assertion. "Modern scientific findings" appear to rely on citations and you provided one that says the traditional Mediterranean diet is associated with some positive health outcomes; the Finnish one, not so much. Here's one for you about the negative health affects of a modern science-derived diet and lifestyle on folks migrating from a traditional diet and lifestyle to a modern one. Type 2 (non-insulin-dependent) diabetes mellitus, migration and westernisation: The Tokelau Island Migrant study http://www.springerlink.com/content/u9693ul1q81474u9/ http://www.springerlink.com/content/u9693ul1q81474u9/ Summary. The migration of Tokelauans from a traditional atoll in the Pacific to urban New Zealand is associated with an increased prevalence and incidence of Type 2 (non-insulindependent) diabetes mellitus over the period 1968-1982. During the same period, a lesser but definite increase is seen among non-migrants in Tokelau. The age standardised prevalence rates rose from 7.5 and 11.7 to 10.8 and 19.9 per 100 respectively in the male and female migrants compared with an increase from 3.0 and 8.7 to 7.0 and 14.3 per 100 in the nonmigrant males and females respectively. The incidence of diabetes is shown to be consistently higher in the migrants compared to the non-migrants giving relative risks of 1.5 in males and 1.9 in females. The factors most likely contributing to this difference, are changes to a higher calorie, high protein diet, higher alcohol consumption, a greater weight gain and altered levels of physical activity in the migrants. A number of populations in the Pacific have been shown to have a low rate of diabetes in their traditional setting, but may have a genetic predisposition for diabetes which responds to factors in the urban industrialised environment and life-style. The social and economic changes taking place in Tokelau are also clearly increasing the risk of diabetes. To reverse these trends and prevent the development of complications of Type 2 diabetes, it will be important to institute preventive programmes and to follow up the population in both environments for long-term outcomes, including mortality.

bmj 15y ago

To add to adolph's comment, could you point a citation to back up this? And while you're not a shill, I find your site misguided, in overly relying on equating natural, traditional diets with healthy, leading you to some recommendations that are orthogonal to healthiness, like fermented veggies and sprouted grains, and some that are unhelpful to health, like red meat and butter. The people of Finland drastically improved their health metrics when they transitioned to a modern mainstream European diet away from their natural, traditional Finnish diet of lots of red meat and butter. Additionally, how does a "modern mainstream European diet" compare to a traditional Finnish diet? I've been reading Kristen's blog for a long time. I don't agree with everything I read, and I tend to be skeptical of strong opinions on either side of an equation. That said, I can't help but agree with the basic premise of the post: food producers are not entirely truthful about what's in the stuff they produce and we put into our bodies. And our health and producers' bottom lines do not always line up. For example, did you know that factory farmed chickens are fed arsenic, and that often ends in the meat you purchase from the supermarket[1]? And this went on for many years before the FDA put a stop to it? [1] http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=13793945 http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=13793945 EDIT: Fixed italics.

bfe 15y ago
I was thinking of a scientific study I read a couple years ago, the citation for which escapes me at the moment. How I long for the day when I can install the Google brain history page implant beta. But five seconds on the present-day Google uncovered both: (1) a Wikipedia page on Finnish cuisine that shows a picture of a butter-slathered pastry and mentions stuff about hunting, red meat, buttermilk, and fruits and vegetables being unavailable nine months out of the year until recently; and, also on the first page of results, (2) a scientific review paper in the Journal of the American College of Surgeons by an M.D.-Ph.D. Yale professor indicating that Finland has both the world's highest consumption of saturated fatty acids and the world's highest ischemic heart disease mortality rate, and the highest rate of myocardial infarction of any of the countries surveyed in another study; and that "it is generally established that the Finnish diet of fatty red meats, butter, and bread, is highly conducive to heart disease." The best part is, it's a review article that cites 64 other scientific articles, so you can follow up with those to learn more. Here you go, with my bonus url cruft: http://nutrilearning.com.ar/docs/articulos/interes/alimentos/AcOliva_saludcardiovascular.pdf http://nutrilearning.com.ar/docs/articulos/interes/alimentos... The study I had remembered reading, which I'll track down this weekend sometime when I'm not on Hacker News while getting ready to go to work, was more recent and shows new improvements in Finnish health metrics as they have moved away from their traditional diet and begun eating a lot more food from the rest of Europe. And I share your agreement with this particular post on Kristen's blog.