4 ms·

Yeah, let's ignore all the good and force everyone to go back to human drivers that are 10x worse.

clifdweller 5y ago
the point isn't to ignore it but to make sure everyone using it is 100% aware they need to be paying attention as this is a edge case that is common that the system cant handle so drivers are still responsible to take over
jacquesm 5y ago
Can you please stop repeating this tripe, it's been debunked over-and-over again, and it is really getting tiring.
evanextreme 5y ago
No one is saying this should be the case, just that the feature is not what the company advertises (the ability for the car to fully drive itself) and that said feature is further away from completion than many might lead you to believe. as someone who drives a tesla with autopilot, I agree with this. Autopilot is the best lane assistance system ive used, but thats all it is.
breakfastduck 5y ago
Go back? Human drivers are the norm, not the exception. This argument is tiresome beyond belief. But no, just keep disregarding the clearly significant issues and mis-marketing, because progress, right?
kube-system 5y ago
Tesla does not offer a vehicle that does not require human drivers (not even momentarily). Tesla's autopilot and FSD systems are both SAE Level 2, which means the human is still in operation of the vehicle at all times. All of Tesla's driving assistance technologies require a human to monitor operation of the vehicle and intervene if necessary. The fact that they have given anyone an impression otherwise is problematic. https://www.sae.org/binaries/content/gallery/cm/articles/press-releases/2018/12/j3016-levels-of-automation-image.png https://www.sae.org/binaries/content/gallery/cm/articles/pre...
- ajross 5y ago
  > The fact that they have given anyone an impression otherwise is problematic. Good grief. This meme will not die. The car literally tells you to keep your hands on the wheel every time you engage autopilot, yells at you if you don't, will lock you out of the system as punishment if you don't comply, and if you really seem disabled will bring the car to a stop and turn the hazards on. It simply will not operate without an attentive driver, or at the very least one spending considerable energy at defeating the attention nags. There are exactly zero Tesla drivers in the world who don't know these rules. Just stop with the nonsense. Please.
  - vkou 5y ago
    > There are exactly zero Tesla drivers in the world who don't know these rules. Just stop with the nonsense. Please. Tesla's marketing also knows that there are exactly zero drivers in the world who follow those rules, but that doesn't stop them from overselling the capabilities of what they ship.
    - ajross 5y ago
      Stop it. Please. Again, there are no Tesla drivers who have been misled about the capabilities of the system. The people who have been mislead are folks like you who read arguments on the internet and don't drive these cars. Go try one and see how the system works. It doesn't permit the kind of confusion that everyone constantly assumes. It just doesn't.
      - kube-system 5y ago
        There are many instances of people defeating the lockout system. Social media is full of these types of demonstrations. Plenty have the attitude that it is okay to do this. Some have died while showing it off.
        ajross 5y ago
        "Defeating the lockout system" wasn't the discussion at hand. The contention upthread is that Tesla drivers did not know that they needed drive the car.
paxys 5y ago
Less than 100 first responders are hit annually in the USA. The fact that just Tesla has managed to hit 11 since 2018 makes it pretty clear that human drivers are not "10x worse" than Tesla's tech, but quite the opposite.
- qweqwweqwe-90i 5y ago
  You are comparing two different things. 11 responder vehicles crashes is not comparable to how many first responders (people) are hit.
thebruce87m 5y ago
There is no independent data to support your 10X claim. Tesla marketing or an Elon tweet doesn’t count.
sillystuff 5y ago
I was curious and went looking for corroboration / refutation of the 10x you stated. Tesla and Musk both have cited 10x safer (but I didn't see any independent confirmation). But, there was a critical analysis by Forbes that came to a different conclusion. Per Forbes, "[with autopilot] it looks like a Tesla is slightly less safe. But not a lot less safe." https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradtempleton/2020/07/28/teslas-arent-safer-on-autopilot-so-researchers-calling-for-driver-monitoring-may-be-right/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradtempleton/2020/07/28/teslas...

the point isn't to ignore it but to make sure everyone using it is 100% aware they need to be paying attention as this is a edge case that is common that the system cant handle so drivers are still responsible to take over

jacquesm 5y ago

Can you please stop repeating this tripe, it's been debunked over-and-over again, and it is really getting tiring.

evanextreme 5y ago

No one is saying this should be the case, just that the feature is not what the company advertises (the ability for the car to fully drive itself) and that said feature is further away from completion than many might lead you to believe. as someone who drives a tesla with autopilot, I agree with this. Autopilot is the best lane assistance system ive used, but thats all it is.

breakfastduck 5y ago

Go back? Human drivers are the norm, not the exception. This argument is tiresome beyond belief. But no, just keep disregarding the clearly significant issues and mis-marketing, because progress, right?

kube-system 5y ago

Tesla does not offer a vehicle that does not require human drivers (not even momentarily). Tesla's autopilot and FSD systems are both SAE Level 2, which means the human is still in operation of the vehicle at all times. All of Tesla's driving assistance technologies require a human to monitor operation of the vehicle and intervene if necessary. The fact that they have given anyone an impression otherwise is problematic. https://www.sae.org/binaries/content/gallery/cm/articles/press-releases/2018/12/j3016-levels-of-automation-image.png https://www.sae.org/binaries/content/gallery/cm/articles/pre...

ajross 5y ago
> The fact that they have given anyone an impression otherwise is problematic. Good grief. This meme will not die. The car literally tells you to keep your hands on the wheel every time you engage autopilot, yells at you if you don't, will lock you out of the system as punishment if you don't comply, and if you really seem disabled will bring the car to a stop and turn the hazards on. It simply will not operate without an attentive driver, or at the very least one spending considerable energy at defeating the attention nags. There are exactly zero Tesla drivers in the world who don't know these rules. Just stop with the nonsense. Please.
- vkou 5y ago
  > There are exactly zero Tesla drivers in the world who don't know these rules. Just stop with the nonsense. Please. Tesla's marketing also knows that there are exactly zero drivers in the world who follow those rules, but that doesn't stop them from overselling the capabilities of what they ship.
  - ajross 5y ago
    Stop it. Please. Again, there are no Tesla drivers who have been misled about the capabilities of the system. The people who have been mislead are folks like you who read arguments on the internet and don't drive these cars. Go try one and see how the system works. It doesn't permit the kind of confusion that everyone constantly assumes. It just doesn't.
    - kube-system 5y ago
      There are many instances of people defeating the lockout system. Social media is full of these types of demonstrations. Plenty have the attitude that it is okay to do this. Some have died while showing it off.
      - ajross 5y ago
        "Defeating the lockout system" wasn't the discussion at hand. The contention upthread is that Tesla drivers did not know that they needed drive the car.

paxys 5y ago

Less than 100 first responders are hit annually in the USA. The fact that just Tesla has managed to hit 11 since 2018 makes it pretty clear that human drivers are not "10x worse" than Tesla's tech, but quite the opposite.

qweqwweqwe-90i 5y ago
You are comparing two different things. 11 responder vehicles crashes is not comparable to how many first responders (people) are hit.

thebruce87m 5y ago

There is no independent data to support your 10X claim. Tesla marketing or an Elon tweet doesn’t count.

sillystuff 5y ago

I was curious and went looking for corroboration / refutation of the 10x you stated. Tesla and Musk both have cited 10x safer (but I didn't see any independent confirmation). But, there was a critical analysis by Forbes that came to a different conclusion. Per Forbes, "[with autopilot] it looks like a Tesla is slightly less safe. But not a lot less safe." https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradtempleton/2020/07/28/teslas-arent-safer-on-autopilot-so-researchers-calling-for-driver-monitoring-may-be-right/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradtempleton/2020/07/28/teslas...