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I would argue that partial self driving is an irresponsible product not because it's impossible to drive safely with it, but because so many people will use it

I would argue that partial self driving is an irresponsible product not because it's impossible to drive safely with it, but because so many people will use it as an excuse to pay little to no attention to the road. If you personally are a responsible driver and even a better driver with it, that's great - but most people probably aren't going to use it the same way, especially those without much of an understanding of the technology - and especially given the way that Tesla markets it.

jskrn 5y ago
Well said, that last bit especially. The regulations on medical devices are on how the manufacturer markets it. Should be the same for driving technology.
Drunk_Engineer 5y ago
The technical term for this is Risk Compensation: "Risk compensation is a theory which suggests that people typically adjust their behavior in response to perceived levels of risk, becoming more careful where they sense greater risk and less careful if they feel more protected."
- xahrepap 5y ago
  Reminds me of this kind of thing: https://usa.streetsblog.org/2017/09/13/wide-residential-streets-are-dangerous-why-are-they-so-common/ https://usa.streetsblog.org/2017/09/13/wide-residential-stre... I was first introduced to "wide streets in neighborhoods are more dangerous than narrow" on HN years ago. (I don't think it was the linked article, but that was the first one that came up just now after a search :P ) Since having read that, I've actually noticed how true this is, at least to me anecdotally. When I'm driving in a neighborhood with crowded streets, I can't bring myself to go over 15MPH, much less over the speed limit (typically 25 in neighborhoods in the US). Wide streets give a sense of security. So I feel like people are less likely to pay attention going around bends, parked cars, etc, than if they didn't have that sense of security.
- MichaelZuo 5y ago
  Also moral hazard, kinda.
wilg 5y ago
This is a question that is answerable with the right data – we can just see if it's safer or not.
- malwarebytess 5y ago
  Doesn't the data show that cars with assistive technologies are in fewer non-fatal and fatal accidents?
  - new_realist 5y ago
    Tesla marketed Autopilot != responsibly implemented assistive safety systems.
- tomdell 5y ago
  It looks like the federal government is beginning to collect and analyze relevant data, which will be interesting. https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-06-29/nhtsa-adas-crash-data https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-06-29/nhtsa-adas... Tesla released data in the past, but that’s quite suspect as they have an obvious agenda and aren’t known for open and honest communication. https://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-tesla-safety-20181005-story.html https://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-tesla-safety...
kemiller 5y ago
Yes there have been stories about irresponsible people. Do you have any evidence that this is the common case? The aggregate evidence seems to suggest reduced accidents and reduced fatalities.
- gusgus01 5y ago
  There was a study that adaptive cruise control and lane assist leads to more people speeding: https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/adaptive-cruise-control-spurs-drivers-to-speed https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/adaptive-cruise-control-spu... They then use a "common formula" to show that that leads to more fatal accidents, but didn't actually study on actual crash data.
birken 5y ago
Absolutely not true as a blanket statement. Maybe if the driver monitoring is so lax that you could conceivably trick the car into poorly driving itself, but the system I use, Comma [1], has incredibly strict driver monitoring. There is absolutely no doubt I'm a safer driver with Comma than without it. I'm still in control, but Comma not only allows me to expend less effort driving (which allows me to stay alert over longer periods of time), but also be much less emotional when driving. I'm pretty convinced that a large percentage of accidents are caused by frustrated or bored drivers doing crazy things that you just don't feel the urge to do with the assistance of self-driving. 1: https://comma.ai/ https://comma.ai/
- jedberg 5y ago
  I use the same system as you do, and I've noticed that if you mention that system's name, you tend to get downvotes. I haven't yet figured out why, not sure if there is a bot or just a lot of Tesla fans who downvote the mention of our system. Edit: After one minute I got a downvote.
  - SECProto 5y ago
    It sounds like you're advertising it. "The future can be yours, today. For the introductory monthly price of 79.99. Sign up here[1]"
    - jedberg 5y ago
      This doesn't even make sense. Simply mentioning the name of a product I use is not advertising. Otherwise, is every person here who mentions Tesla advertising too?
      - SECProto 5y ago
        > Simply mentioning the name of a product I use is not advertising. Sorry, I actually meant to refer to Birken's comment above. Advertising might not have been the best word - astroturfing? If you read their comment but replace "comma" with "tesla" it still reads as spammy. Yours was fine (though discussing downvotes will always get you downvotes, my comment included). > Otherwise, is every person here who mentions Tesla advertising too? Only the ones who needlessly sing the praises of the Tesla autopilot in barely-related threads.
samstave 5y ago
One would think that with "autopilot" there would be a limit to speed and an increased "caution distance" the vehicle maintains with everything. I also think there should be dedicated lanes for self driving cars.. A very good friend of mine was a sensor engineer at google working on virtual sensors that interacted with hand gestures in the air... and is now a pre-eminent sensor engineer for a large japanese company everyone has heard of... We drove from the bay to nprthern california in his tesla and it was terrifying how much trust he put into that car. I got car sick and ended up throwing up out the window... Knowing what I know of machines working in tech since 1995 -- I would trust SHIT for self-driving just yet.
woah 5y ago
I once talked to a guy who bragged about having Autopilot drive him home when he's drunk
joshuanapoli 5y ago
> so many people will use it as an excuse to pay little to no attention to the road I guess that we have to look at the results here to judge whether too many people are not paying attention. Hopefully the investigation will reveal whether the autopilot incidents of collision with emergency vehicles is significantly more frequent or less frequent than from vehicles being driven in the traditional way.
telside 5y ago
I trust someone posting here to driver safely and safer with it. Forget the average, how about the bottom 10-20% of all drivers? I don't trust the bottom 10% driving with "Autopilot" at all, zero. They are going to use it to go on autopilot while driving, exactly as the marketing implies. I mean there has to even be people who think the car itself is conscious. Car has advanced AI, must be conscious. To think otherwise is just highly underestimating how clueless some people are.
- vnchr 5y ago
  I don’t trust those people without Autopilot either. Is that the point?

jskrn 5y ago

Well said, that last bit especially. The regulations on medical devices are on how the manufacturer markets it. Should be the same for driving technology.

Drunk_Engineer 5y ago

The technical term for this is Risk Compensation: "Risk compensation is a theory which suggests that people typically adjust their behavior in response to perceived levels of risk, becoming more careful where they sense greater risk and less careful if they feel more protected."

xahrepap 5y ago
Reminds me of this kind of thing: https://usa.streetsblog.org/2017/09/13/wide-residential-streets-are-dangerous-why-are-they-so-common/ https://usa.streetsblog.org/2017/09/13/wide-residential-stre... I was first introduced to "wide streets in neighborhoods are more dangerous than narrow" on HN years ago. (I don't think it was the linked article, but that was the first one that came up just now after a search :P ) Since having read that, I've actually noticed how true this is, at least to me anecdotally. When I'm driving in a neighborhood with crowded streets, I can't bring myself to go over 15MPH, much less over the speed limit (typically 25 in neighborhoods in the US). Wide streets give a sense of security. So I feel like people are less likely to pay attention going around bends, parked cars, etc, than if they didn't have that sense of security.
MichaelZuo 5y ago
Also moral hazard, kinda.

wilg 5y ago

This is a question that is answerable with the right data – we can just see if it's safer or not.

malwarebytess 5y ago
Doesn't the data show that cars with assistive technologies are in fewer non-fatal and fatal accidents?
- new_realist 5y ago
  Tesla marketed Autopilot != responsibly implemented assistive safety systems.
tomdell 5y ago
It looks like the federal government is beginning to collect and analyze relevant data, which will be interesting. https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-06-29/nhtsa-adas-crash-data https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-06-29/nhtsa-adas... Tesla released data in the past, but that’s quite suspect as they have an obvious agenda and aren’t known for open and honest communication. https://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-tesla-safety-20181005-story.html https://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-tesla-safety...

kemiller 5y ago

Yes there have been stories about irresponsible people. Do you have any evidence that this is the common case? The aggregate evidence seems to suggest reduced accidents and reduced fatalities.

gusgus01 5y ago
There was a study that adaptive cruise control and lane assist leads to more people speeding: https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/adaptive-cruise-control-spurs-drivers-to-speed https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/adaptive-cruise-control-spu... They then use a "common formula" to show that that leads to more fatal accidents, but didn't actually study on actual crash data.

birken 5y ago

Absolutely not true as a blanket statement. Maybe if the driver monitoring is so lax that you could conceivably trick the car into poorly driving itself, but the system I use, Comma [1], has incredibly strict driver monitoring. There is absolutely no doubt I'm a safer driver with Comma than without it. I'm still in control, but Comma not only allows me to expend less effort driving (which allows me to stay alert over longer periods of time), but also be much less emotional when driving. I'm pretty convinced that a large percentage of accidents are caused by frustrated or bored drivers doing crazy things that you just don't feel the urge to do with the assistance of self-driving. 1: https://comma.ai/ https://comma.ai/

jedberg 5y ago
I use the same system as you do, and I've noticed that if you mention that system's name, you tend to get downvotes. I haven't yet figured out why, not sure if there is a bot or just a lot of Tesla fans who downvote the mention of our system. Edit: After one minute I got a downvote.
- SECProto 5y ago
  It sounds like you're advertising it. "The future can be yours, today. For the introductory monthly price of 79.99. Sign up here[1]"
  - jedberg 5y ago
    This doesn't even make sense. Simply mentioning the name of a product I use is not advertising. Otherwise, is every person here who mentions Tesla advertising too?
    - SECProto 5y ago
      > Simply mentioning the name of a product I use is not advertising. Sorry, I actually meant to refer to Birken's comment above. Advertising might not have been the best word - astroturfing? If you read their comment but replace "comma" with "tesla" it still reads as spammy. Yours was fine (though discussing downvotes will always get you downvotes, my comment included). > Otherwise, is every person here who mentions Tesla advertising too? Only the ones who needlessly sing the praises of the Tesla autopilot in barely-related threads.

samstave 5y ago

One would think that with "autopilot" there would be a limit to speed and an increased "caution distance" the vehicle maintains with everything. I also think there should be dedicated lanes for self driving cars.. A very good friend of mine was a sensor engineer at google working on virtual sensors that interacted with hand gestures in the air... and is now a pre-eminent sensor engineer for a large japanese company everyone has heard of... We drove from the bay to nprthern california in his tesla and it was terrifying how much trust he put into that car. I got car sick and ended up throwing up out the window... Knowing what I know of machines working in tech since 1995 -- I would trust SHIT for self-driving just yet.

woah 5y ago

I once talked to a guy who bragged about having Autopilot drive him home when he's drunk

joshuanapoli 5y ago

> so many people will use it as an excuse to pay little to no attention to the road I guess that we have to look at the results here to judge whether too many people are not paying attention. Hopefully the investigation will reveal whether the autopilot incidents of collision with emergency vehicles is significantly more frequent or less frequent than from vehicles being driven in the traditional way.

telside 5y ago

I trust someone posting here to driver safely and safer with it. Forget the average, how about the bottom 10-20% of all drivers? I don't trust the bottom 10% driving with "Autopilot" at all, zero. They are going to use it to go on autopilot while driving, exactly as the marketing implies. I mean there has to even be people who think the car itself is conscious. Car has advanced AI, must be conscious. To think otherwise is just highly underestimating how clueless some people are.

vnchr 5y ago
I don’t trust those people without Autopilot either. Is that the point?