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There's definitely an argument for making hay while the sun shines. But retiring early exposes you more to future bear markets since the value/returns of your i

by jstx1 5y ago

There's definitely an argument for making hay while the sun shines. But retiring early exposes you more to future bear markets since the value/returns of your investment portfolio will go down. Being employed seems a lot more resilient in that case.

oneplane 5y ago
Being employed or running a business (or being in school, in a sports team etc.) also means you're part of the general actively synchronised life. Might sound fuzzy but it boils down to being in touch with society around you. Then again, there is plenty of society all over the world where that means working strange hours, strange jobs, or not at all.
- AnotherGoodName 5y ago
  What you've said is correct but if you take what you've said and apply it to the point of retirement it gets a bit depressing since you do indeed lose all those things. People have a lot of trouble accepting retirement because of that loss of routine and of connection. So what's the best outcome? My point of view is that the answer is to find something right now that provides that connection to society without causing you harm in other aspects. So it's an argument for quitting. The original poster in this thread says to push through pain now to early retirement. But lets think about that. You'd be working your ass off now merely to hit the issues of a loss of routine and connection later in life. Instead find something now that you wouldn't mind doing past retirement age and you'll never have those issues.
  - oneplane 5y ago
    Yep, and having something to do is sometimes all you need to keep "plugged in". It doesn't even need to be a job or a money maker. That said, when (commercial) value is created, it's usually a good idea to make sure that value isn't given away for free (but it doesn't have to be top-tier pricing either). Besides income, money is also a signal and a valuation method for the parties involved.
- kgin 5y ago
  Everyone needs a way to plug in to the world around them. It doesn’t have to be a full time job or even a job at all. But this is something everyone needs.
  - oneplane 5y ago
    Indeed. There are many ways to have that (some people want to be part of a group or club, some people want to be around but mostly just as a passive observer, some people want to consume, some want to produce), it's just a matter of finding out what works. In tech I'm seeing more combinations of low-hour steady jobs, combined with passion projects, entrepreneurial things, being in/around nature, teaching things to other people, and also very 'low complexity' stuff like running a few shifts at a non-chain espresso bar, just for the change of scenery while still being connected and active. Heck, I've had someone do that, enjoy it a ton and then flip around (owns an espresso bar, does some DevOps engineering on the side, both working out great even in the pandemic). It's mostly that attempting to peak for the sake of peaking or retiring for the sake of retiring usually ends up rather disconnected and hollow. Perhaps it's some sort of genetic thirst for tribalism.
- granshaw 5y ago
  It’s not an either/or. Having a good nest egg gives you the option of working less or working on something more fulfilling (that still generates income)
  - oneplane 5y ago
    That is true. But following some 'masterplan' that involves "Get a PhD, get a crappy bonus-oriented job that you hate in a place that you hate, quit everything to retire" is just another variation on the other general flows ("go to school, get a job, find love, get kids, get a house, get the kids to go to school, become a grandparent"). None of those are going to suddenly 'buy' you happiness. It also doesn't mean going 'against the flow' or 'doing the opposite' is therefore 'better', it's just that there is no guaranteed plan that makes life meaningful and nice. If you are following some common flow and it turns out you're not happy doing that, try and modify instead of 'keeping your head down and powering through' or some nonsense like that. Especially if you have options.
    - burntoutfire 5y ago
      > If you are following some common flow and it turns out you're not happy doing that You assume people are actually capable of being happy. I find it highly questionable.
ryandrake 5y ago
> There's definitely an argument for making hay while the sun shines. Forgot that phrase, but that's exactly what I'm getting at. Also, make that hay in the morning. Because of compounding interest/returns, dollars (or pounds) that you save in your 20s are far, FAR more valuable than dollars you save in your 30s which are more valuable than dollars you save in your 40s. The advice you sometimes hear to go traveling and backpacking in your early 20s to self-discover is total financial lunacy. Every month you don't earn money in your early 20s probably results in extending retirement six or more months.
- jstx1 5y ago
  You can have other goals apart from increasing the balance of your investment portfolio or retiring early. It's not all about optimising this one aspect of your life.
- rebelos 5y ago
  It's a real shame that spending your youth fixated on money and a nebulous future retirement doesn't have a price tag attached to it. You can calculate the opportunity cost of a dollar spent vs a dollar invested, but you cannot so easily calculate the cost of squandering a chance to have a memorable experience while you're still young and unencumbered. Balance.
  - burntoutfire 5y ago
    > you cannot so easily calculate the cost of squandering a chance to have a memorable experience while you're still young and unencumbered. Do people who do the whole "frontload a big hedonistic experience before you start working/living as an adult" actually end up with memorable experiences that often?
    - rebelos 5y ago
      > "frontload a big hedonistic experience before you start working/living as an adult" Absolutely shameful straw man.
kgin 5y ago
3% withdrawal rate has a ton of cushion built in, surviving all historic scenarios including the Great Depression. If we do experience something worse than the Great Depression, it’s not a particularly safe assumption that your job would still exist either, but having whatever was left of your savings would put you in a better spot than most to forge a new life in this new post-apocalyptic world.

by jstx1 5y ago

oneplane 5y ago

Being employed or running a business (or being in school, in a sports team etc.) also means you're part of the general actively synchronised life. Might sound fuzzy but it boils down to being in touch with society around you. Then again, there is plenty of society all over the world where that means working strange hours, strange jobs, or not at all.

AnotherGoodName 5y ago
What you've said is correct but if you take what you've said and apply it to the point of retirement it gets a bit depressing since you do indeed lose all those things. People have a lot of trouble accepting retirement because of that loss of routine and of connection. So what's the best outcome? My point of view is that the answer is to find something right now that provides that connection to society without causing you harm in other aspects. So it's an argument for quitting. The original poster in this thread says to push through pain now to early retirement. But lets think about that. You'd be working your ass off now merely to hit the issues of a loss of routine and connection later in life. Instead find something now that you wouldn't mind doing past retirement age and you'll never have those issues.
- oneplane 5y ago
  Yep, and having something to do is sometimes all you need to keep "plugged in". It doesn't even need to be a job or a money maker. That said, when (commercial) value is created, it's usually a good idea to make sure that value isn't given away for free (but it doesn't have to be top-tier pricing either). Besides income, money is also a signal and a valuation method for the parties involved.
kgin 5y ago
Everyone needs a way to plug in to the world around them. It doesn’t have to be a full time job or even a job at all. But this is something everyone needs.
- oneplane 5y ago
  Indeed. There are many ways to have that (some people want to be part of a group or club, some people want to be around but mostly just as a passive observer, some people want to consume, some want to produce), it's just a matter of finding out what works. In tech I'm seeing more combinations of low-hour steady jobs, combined with passion projects, entrepreneurial things, being in/around nature, teaching things to other people, and also very 'low complexity' stuff like running a few shifts at a non-chain espresso bar, just for the change of scenery while still being connected and active. Heck, I've had someone do that, enjoy it a ton and then flip around (owns an espresso bar, does some DevOps engineering on the side, both working out great even in the pandemic). It's mostly that attempting to peak for the sake of peaking or retiring for the sake of retiring usually ends up rather disconnected and hollow. Perhaps it's some sort of genetic thirst for tribalism.
granshaw 5y ago
It’s not an either/or. Having a good nest egg gives you the option of working less or working on something more fulfilling (that still generates income)
- oneplane 5y ago
  That is true. But following some 'masterplan' that involves "Get a PhD, get a crappy bonus-oriented job that you hate in a place that you hate, quit everything to retire" is just another variation on the other general flows ("go to school, get a job, find love, get kids, get a house, get the kids to go to school, become a grandparent"). None of those are going to suddenly 'buy' you happiness. It also doesn't mean going 'against the flow' or 'doing the opposite' is therefore 'better', it's just that there is no guaranteed plan that makes life meaningful and nice. If you are following some common flow and it turns out you're not happy doing that, try and modify instead of 'keeping your head down and powering through' or some nonsense like that. Especially if you have options.
  - burntoutfire 5y ago
    > If you are following some common flow and it turns out you're not happy doing that You assume people are actually capable of being happy. I find it highly questionable.

ryandrake 5y ago

> There's definitely an argument for making hay while the sun shines. Forgot that phrase, but that's exactly what I'm getting at. Also, make that hay in the morning. Because of compounding interest/returns, dollars (or pounds) that you save in your 20s are far, FAR more valuable than dollars you save in your 30s which are more valuable than dollars you save in your 40s. The advice you sometimes hear to go traveling and backpacking in your early 20s to self-discover is total financial lunacy. Every month you don't earn money in your early 20s probably results in extending retirement six or more months.

jstx1 5y ago
You can have other goals apart from increasing the balance of your investment portfolio or retiring early. It's not all about optimising this one aspect of your life.
rebelos 5y ago
It's a real shame that spending your youth fixated on money and a nebulous future retirement doesn't have a price tag attached to it. You can calculate the opportunity cost of a dollar spent vs a dollar invested, but you cannot so easily calculate the cost of squandering a chance to have a memorable experience while you're still young and unencumbered. Balance.
- burntoutfire 5y ago
  > you cannot so easily calculate the cost of squandering a chance to have a memorable experience while you're still young and unencumbered. Do people who do the whole "frontload a big hedonistic experience before you start working/living as an adult" actually end up with memorable experiences that often?
  - rebelos 5y ago
    > "frontload a big hedonistic experience before you start working/living as an adult" Absolutely shameful straw man.

kgin 5y ago

3% withdrawal rate has a ton of cushion built in, surviving all historic scenarios including the Great Depression. If we do experience something worse than the Great Depression, it’s not a particularly safe assumption that your job would still exist either, but having whatever was left of your savings would put you in a better spot than most to forge a new life in this new post-apocalyptic world.