4 ms·

Did we leave the civilians behind this time?

nanis 5y ago
Assuming this is a serious question. Security Alert: U.S. Embassy Kabul[1] (archived[2]). US Embassy in Kabul shelters staff at airport after evacuation[3] (archived[4]). Afghans clinging to a U.S. transport plane[5]. Afghans clinging to a U.S. transport plane falling to their deaths[6]. [1]: https://af.usembassy.gov/security-alert-u-s-embassy-kabul/ https://af.usembassy.gov/security-alert-u-s-embassy-kabul/ [2]: https://archive.is/z2NXo https://archive.is/z2NXo [3]: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2021/08/15/us-embassy-evacuated-blinken-defends-us-withdrawal-afghanistan/8141842002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2021/08/15/us-e... [4]: https://archive.is/ophy2 https://archive.is/ophy2 [5]: https://twitter.com/AfghanUrdu/status/1427264029299560448 https://twitter.com/AfghanUrdu/status/1427264029299560448 [6]: https://twitter.com/Rajput_ctn/status/1427242329518141440 https://twitter.com/Rajput_ctn/status/1427242329518141440
- Forge36 5y ago
  It was, I haven't been following closely enough to know the details. Did we leave US citizens behind as well?
  - nanis 5y ago
    When you click the first link, here's what the U.S. Embassy tells you: > Event: The security situation in Kabul continues to change quickly, including at the airport. U.S. citizens should continue to shelter in place. U.S. citizens seeking assistance to depart the country should complete this Repatriation Assistance Request for each traveler in their group. Spouses and minor children of U.S. citizens in Afghanistan who are awaiting immigrant visas should also complete this form if they wish to depart. Please do so as soon as possible. Please do so only once. So, in the absence of any better information, a reasonable deduction is that there are civilians left behind. Plus, there is Mark Frerichs[1]. [1]: https://www.wjol.com/lombard-man-is-last-known-u-s-hostage-of-taliban-in-afghanistan/ https://www.wjol.com/lombard-man-is-last-known-u-s-hostage-o...
  - huitzitziltzin 5y ago
    What I have heard (don't remember exactly where, but likely I read this in the Times or Post) is that there are an estimated 20,000 US citizens in Kabul. Many US embassies encourage US citizens abroad to register w/ the embassy whether they are visiting or traveling. I imagine that was especially encouraged in Afghanistan. I think I also read that the Germans want to evacuate something like 10,000 people, including some of their own citizens and some Afghan employees / dependents. Other Western powers likely have similar numbers.
- SV_BubbleTime 5y ago
  The USA today article at 4 is amazing that they have gall to interview Liz Cheney, who for obvious reasons isn’t going to have an unbiased opinion here, but who finds the time to blame nearly the whole thing on Trump. There is a lot that Trump did wrong, but Trump/Pompeo negotiating a set of conditions for withdraw, making a plan regardless of how good or bad in theory, then having Biden come in, ignore all of it, withdraw our forces including Bagram overnight without telling our allied Afghan Forces, waiting for no conditions to be met, and it not being clear that if the Taliban didn’t cooperate that we’d hit back hard - is Trump’s Fault - is beyond bias. It’s straight up a perversion of reality. USA Today should be embarrassed for such an obvious partisan twist, if you’ve been paying attention it would be expected of Cheney who seems to have been broken by Trump. Bad guy who tweeted the mean things or not, this isn’t on him, it’s square on the current administration and bureaucracy. 39 days ago Biden’s own press event completely shrugged this off as even a possibility, the idea we would have another Siagon. 6 days ago the intelligence community we’re told to respect revised a potential fall of Kabul from 90 days, to 72 hours, it fell in less than 24. Also … Those poor people holding on to the plane. All dead, they were sitting on the landing gear panel, that folds under on a C-117. It’s clear how bad things really are looking at how insecure the airstrip is. It shouldn’t be possible to grab onto a military plane in any scenario.
  - ericmay 5y ago
    I'm usually one for "let's not blame all of the world's problems on Trump", but Trump (or his admin) negotiated a May pullout of Afghanistan with the Taliban. I'm not sure why you're asserting that Biden "ignored all of it" and "pulled out overnight". What conditions were or weren't met? In what ways did the Taliban not agree to the Doha Accord? Be specific. And what do you think telling the commander of Bagram that we were leaving was going to accomplish? First, they knew we were leaving. Obviously we're not sending them an invitation to join us. And if they didn't do anything and were "surprised" by the US pulling out... I mean did he not notice forces packing up? Incompetence. You can't fix that. Second, do you think this would have changed the entire ANA folding? No. It's a boogeyman with no consequences whatsoever. > Also … Those poor people holding on to the plane. All dead. It’s clear how bad things really are looking at how insecure the airstrip is. It shouldn’t be possible to grab onto a military plane in any scenario. Well it's either that or the US forces unleash machine gun fire on civilians. Many more would be dead. The truth is there's no scenario in which you can secure a perimeter that large without massive forces when a population decides to just storm the fence, unless of course you want to just indiscriminately kill people. Anyway. My real "enemy" here is the exact same media who has for years been complaining about Afghanistan, publishing article after article about US imperialism in Afghanistan, how it's a failed war, all of that and then when we say fine you're right, they turn right around and start talking about how pulling out is the wrong move blah blah blah. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Might as well save money. The geopolitical ramifications are overstated too. Yet again MSM working on trying to drum up war scenarios. This frees US attention from Afghanistan and the Middle East to worry about other areas. Afghanistan has no way to extract resources. There are no ports. No roads. No mines. No machines. All of this "China is going to get all the resources" stuff is just fear-mongering nonsense. We spent 20 years and $2 trillion+ trying to get Bin Laden and create a good government in Afghanistan. It didn't work. The government collapsed in a week. Spending another 10 years there would have changed nothing. Should have left earlier anyway. -edit- Re: Saigon pictures. You know what's funny? People were talking about getting those exact pictures to make the comparison before the evacuation even began. Gotta get those clicks!

Assuming this is a serious question. Security Alert: U.S. Embassy Kabul[1] (archived[2]). US Embassy in Kabul shelters staff at airport after evacuation[3] (archived[4]). Afghans clinging to a U.S. transport plane[5]. Afghans clinging to a U.S. transport plane falling to their deaths[6]. [1]: https://af.usembassy.gov/security-alert-u-s-embassy-kabul/ https://af.usembassy.gov/security-alert-u-s-embassy-kabul/ [2]: https://archive.is/z2NXo https://archive.is/z2NXo [3]: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2021/08/15/us-embassy-evacuated-blinken-defends-us-withdrawal-afghanistan/8141842002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2021/08/15/us-e... [4]: https://archive.is/ophy2 https://archive.is/ophy2 [5]: https://twitter.com/AfghanUrdu/status/1427264029299560448 https://twitter.com/AfghanUrdu/status/1427264029299560448 [6]: https://twitter.com/Rajput_ctn/status/1427242329518141440 https://twitter.com/Rajput_ctn/status/1427242329518141440

Forge36 5y ago
It was, I haven't been following closely enough to know the details. Did we leave US citizens behind as well?
- nanis 5y ago
  When you click the first link, here's what the U.S. Embassy tells you: > Event: The security situation in Kabul continues to change quickly, including at the airport. U.S. citizens should continue to shelter in place. U.S. citizens seeking assistance to depart the country should complete this Repatriation Assistance Request for each traveler in their group. Spouses and minor children of U.S. citizens in Afghanistan who are awaiting immigrant visas should also complete this form if they wish to depart. Please do so as soon as possible. Please do so only once. So, in the absence of any better information, a reasonable deduction is that there are civilians left behind. Plus, there is Mark Frerichs[1]. [1]: https://www.wjol.com/lombard-man-is-last-known-u-s-hostage-of-taliban-in-afghanistan/ https://www.wjol.com/lombard-man-is-last-known-u-s-hostage-o...
- huitzitziltzin 5y ago
  What I have heard (don't remember exactly where, but likely I read this in the Times or Post) is that there are an estimated 20,000 US citizens in Kabul. Many US embassies encourage US citizens abroad to register w/ the embassy whether they are visiting or traveling. I imagine that was especially encouraged in Afghanistan. I think I also read that the Germans want to evacuate something like 10,000 people, including some of their own citizens and some Afghan employees / dependents. Other Western powers likely have similar numbers.
SV_BubbleTime 5y ago
The USA today article at 4 is amazing that they have gall to interview Liz Cheney, who for obvious reasons isn’t going to have an unbiased opinion here, but who finds the time to blame nearly the whole thing on Trump. There is a lot that Trump did wrong, but Trump/Pompeo negotiating a set of conditions for withdraw, making a plan regardless of how good or bad in theory, then having Biden come in, ignore all of it, withdraw our forces including Bagram overnight without telling our allied Afghan Forces, waiting for no conditions to be met, and it not being clear that if the Taliban didn’t cooperate that we’d hit back hard - is Trump’s Fault - is beyond bias. It’s straight up a perversion of reality. USA Today should be embarrassed for such an obvious partisan twist, if you’ve been paying attention it would be expected of Cheney who seems to have been broken by Trump. Bad guy who tweeted the mean things or not, this isn’t on him, it’s square on the current administration and bureaucracy. 39 days ago Biden’s own press event completely shrugged this off as even a possibility, the idea we would have another Siagon. 6 days ago the intelligence community we’re told to respect revised a potential fall of Kabul from 90 days, to 72 hours, it fell in less than 24. Also … Those poor people holding on to the plane. All dead, they were sitting on the landing gear panel, that folds under on a C-117. It’s clear how bad things really are looking at how insecure the airstrip is. It shouldn’t be possible to grab onto a military plane in any scenario.
- ericmay 5y ago
  I'm usually one for "let's not blame all of the world's problems on Trump", but Trump (or his admin) negotiated a May pullout of Afghanistan with the Taliban. I'm not sure why you're asserting that Biden "ignored all of it" and "pulled out overnight". What conditions were or weren't met? In what ways did the Taliban not agree to the Doha Accord? Be specific. And what do you think telling the commander of Bagram that we were leaving was going to accomplish? First, they knew we were leaving. Obviously we're not sending them an invitation to join us. And if they didn't do anything and were "surprised" by the US pulling out... I mean did he not notice forces packing up? Incompetence. You can't fix that. Second, do you think this would have changed the entire ANA folding? No. It's a boogeyman with no consequences whatsoever. > Also … Those poor people holding on to the plane. All dead. It’s clear how bad things really are looking at how insecure the airstrip is. It shouldn’t be possible to grab onto a military plane in any scenario. Well it's either that or the US forces unleash machine gun fire on civilians. Many more would be dead. The truth is there's no scenario in which you can secure a perimeter that large without massive forces when a population decides to just storm the fence, unless of course you want to just indiscriminately kill people. Anyway. My real "enemy" here is the exact same media who has for years been complaining about Afghanistan, publishing article after article about US imperialism in Afghanistan, how it's a failed war, all of that and then when we say fine you're right, they turn right around and start talking about how pulling out is the wrong move blah blah blah. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Might as well save money. The geopolitical ramifications are overstated too. Yet again MSM working on trying to drum up war scenarios. This frees US attention from Afghanistan and the Middle East to worry about other areas. Afghanistan has no way to extract resources. There are no ports. No roads. No mines. No machines. All of this "China is going to get all the resources" stuff is just fear-mongering nonsense. We spent 20 years and $2 trillion+ trying to get Bin Laden and create a good government in Afghanistan. It didn't work. The government collapsed in a week. Spending another 10 years there would have changed nothing. Should have left earlier anyway. -edit- Re: Saigon pictures. You know what's funny? People were talking about getting those exact pictures to make the comparison before the evacuation even began. Gotta get those clicks!