7 ms·

Wait till it can ID shoplifting, and people get added to a shared database of blacklisted shoppers. You can steal no problem, but one day you'll be approached

Wait till it can ID shoplifting, and people get added to a shared database of blacklisted shoppers. You can steal no problem, but one day you'll be approached and asked to leave upon entering almost anywhere.

jacquesm 5y ago
This is already a reality: https://recfaces.com/articles/how-to-catch-shoplifter https://recfaces.com/articles/how-to-catch-shoplifter https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/14/22576236/retail-stores-facial-recognition-civil-rights-organizations-ban https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/14/22576236/retail-stores-fa... https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/with-facial-recognition-shoplifting-may-get-you-banned-in-places-youve-never-been/ https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/with-facial-...
MichaelGroves 5y ago
When store employees are told not to physically detain any shoplifter, it hardly matters at all if they tell a serial shoplifter to leave the store. The shoplifter will walk around the confronting employee, grab whatever they like off the shelves, and walk out without paying for it. (I've seen this happen numerous times at 7-11, where the facial recognition is being run by store employees using their eyeballs/brains.) The real victims of this will be the false positives. People who follow the rules, but get incorrectly classified as shoplifters. They will be the ones who are actually turned away at the door.
- swiley 5y ago
  At some point (at least on the east cost) you end up with legit armed private (or public, I can't tell honestly) security at the front.
- derefr 5y ago
  Humans won’t detain anyone, but probably in the future there will be mechanistic countermeasures — e.g. the doors of the store just not opening for shoplifters (or at all, while shoplifters continue to be present — to prevent shoplifters from sneaking in ahead/behind a non-blacklisted customer.) Unmanned stores in the Amazon Go mould are already switching from turnstiles to airlock-style entryways; these can easily recognize and deny shoplifters access. (Never mind that these stores also usually have some form of positive identification, e.g. a card tap or hand-print scan being required to enter; so it’d really just be a matter of blacklisting the account associated with your credential.) There’s no reason that manned stores couldn’t adopt these more-strict entry access systems as well; manned stores just haven’t invested in such technology yet, because they don’t need it in the way unmanned stores do (where an unmanned store without an entry-access system could literally experience 100% “shrinkage”, if someone decided to back a truck up and start loading.) Alternately, the facial recognition could just trigger a phonecall; which, combined with a simple policy that any car belonging to a shoplifter has no right to park in the lot, would mean that such cars would have a tow called on them the second the shoplifter gets out of their car and walks into view of a camera. This wouldn’t work in most of the world, but in the car-centered US, I could see it being a very effective deterrent.
  - MichaelGroves 5y ago
    I recently saw a viral video of a seagull shoplifting a bag of chips. The automatic doors didn't open for the seagull, so the bird just waited until a permitted human approached the door. A "mantrap" entrance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantrap_(access_control) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantrap_(access_control) ) could solve this, but I think many stores don't have the space for it. That 7-11 doesn't. Also, neither the cops nor the towing company will show up in time to do anything about it.
    - derefr 5y ago
      Thank you; a mantrap was exactly what I was trying to describe in my other comments, but didn't know the word for it. It's not true that a 7-11 doesn't have room for a mantrap; remember that an unmanned store doesn't have a cash register / checkout counter, or any space behind such for a person to stand. A manned store could be retrofitted into a secure unmanned store by installing the mantrap entrance into exactly that area.
  - JohnFen 5y ago
    > the doors of the store just not opening for shoplifters (or at all, while shoplifters continue to be present — to prevent shoplifters from sneaking in ahead/behind a non-blacklisted customer.) This is illegal in my state. And, I'm guessing, in most other US states as well.
    - derefr 5y ago
      Do you mean that denying entry is illegal, or denying exit is? Because these unmanned stores do let you leave; they just have separate entry and exit doors, which have mutual-exclusion locking (like an airlock) such that nobody can enter the store through the exit door by getting someone inside the store to open the inner door. (You could slip into the little individual exit hall through the outer exit door; but the inner door in the little exit hall would remain locked until you left and it detected there were no longer people in the hall. Presuming a high-traffic store, this also wouldn't hold anything up, as other customers would continue to exit through the bank of other exit halls to either side of you.) I haven't checked, but presumably pulling a fire alarm inside the store would disable all this security, flinging both the entry and exit doors open. But you can't reach the fire alarm in the exit hall; it's not "inside" the store. The only thing you can do in the exit hall, is exit (which you are always free to do.)
tubbs 5y ago
This will surely help reintegrate former criminals into society.
spoonjim 5y ago
Given the numerous videos of shoplifters just walking into SF stores and stealing in plain view while being recorded, I doubt this will stop any of them. Unless there is some change to the system of policies that cause stores to do effectively nothing about shoplifting, it’s not going to stop.
chubot 5y ago
Meh I think it’s going to be acceptable to wear a mask for at least 5 years, and perhaps indefinitely, which easily defeats facial recognition.
- mikem170 5y ago
  They can already identify people wearing masks [0]: > a normal face mask doesn’t help you ‘evade’ facial recognition [0] https://privacyinternational.org/news-analysis/4511/can-covid-19-face-mask-protect-you-facial-recognition-technology-too https://privacyinternational.org/news-analysis/4511/can-covi...
  - logifail 5y ago
    > They can already identify people wearing masks There were stories in Germany reporting that if you wore a face mask when driving, you must not also be wearing sunglasses and/or a hat ... because the driver's face must be recognisable if you're caught by a speed camera.
  - chubot 5y ago
    Hm interesting, so I guess like all things in security/privacy it boils down to an economic war :-/ How much effort are you willing to put into masks vs. how much effort an adversary is willing to spend to defeat it. It says that there is no single face mask that can defeat every system. That's an interesting point, but what about the converse? There's probably no single recognition system that can defeat every mask. edit: I also think it's not that unacceptable to wear a mask and sunglasses anymore either, though I've never tried. Maybe you have an eye issue and don't want to get COVID :)
  - JohnFen 5y ago
    A fair number of systems are still foiled by masks, as long as the mask covers the entire lower face and is black.
- mortehu 5y ago
  Buildings in New York have already switched the cameras they use to take visitor pass photos with ones that see through the mask, so you don't have to take off your mask anymore.
mikem170 5y ago
Even worse, wait until you somehow acidently find yourself on the shoplifter list. Who are they going to believe, the all knowing facial recognition algorithm, or the lying thief it just identified? What company is going to budget the time and manpower to bother checking?
opportune 5y ago
This is only bad if there is no way to appeal such a decision. If implemented well this is probably a good thing. Shoplifting raises prices/reduces availability for shoppers who don’t shoplift (yes, it lowers profit too. It does both).
- JohnFen 5y ago
  > This is only bad if there is no way to appeal such a decision. This is only true if being falsely accused didn't cost you anything (in terms of time, money, etc.), and if the cost of appealling is zero.
ccheney 5y ago
How about dynamically changing prices as you move around the store based on the data they have about your person (income, etc) (some stores have been implementing digital price tags)

jacquesm 5y ago

This is already a reality: https://recfaces.com/articles/how-to-catch-shoplifter https://recfaces.com/articles/how-to-catch-shoplifter https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/14/22576236/retail-stores-facial-recognition-civil-rights-organizations-ban https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/14/22576236/retail-stores-fa... https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/with-facial-recognition-shoplifting-may-get-you-banned-in-places-youve-never-been/ https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/with-facial-...

MichaelGroves 5y ago

When store employees are told not to physically detain any shoplifter, it hardly matters at all if they tell a serial shoplifter to leave the store. The shoplifter will walk around the confronting employee, grab whatever they like off the shelves, and walk out without paying for it. (I've seen this happen numerous times at 7-11, where the facial recognition is being run by store employees using their eyeballs/brains.) The real victims of this will be the false positives. People who follow the rules, but get incorrectly classified as shoplifters. They will be the ones who are actually turned away at the door.

swiley 5y ago
At some point (at least on the east cost) you end up with legit armed private (or public, I can't tell honestly) security at the front.
derefr 5y ago
Humans won’t detain anyone, but probably in the future there will be mechanistic countermeasures — e.g. the doors of the store just not opening for shoplifters (or at all, while shoplifters continue to be present — to prevent shoplifters from sneaking in ahead/behind a non-blacklisted customer.) Unmanned stores in the Amazon Go mould are already switching from turnstiles to airlock-style entryways; these can easily recognize and deny shoplifters access. (Never mind that these stores also usually have some form of positive identification, e.g. a card tap or hand-print scan being required to enter; so it’d really just be a matter of blacklisting the account associated with your credential.) There’s no reason that manned stores couldn’t adopt these more-strict entry access systems as well; manned stores just haven’t invested in such technology yet, because they don’t need it in the way unmanned stores do (where an unmanned store without an entry-access system could literally experience 100% “shrinkage”, if someone decided to back a truck up and start loading.) Alternately, the facial recognition could just trigger a phonecall; which, combined with a simple policy that any car belonging to a shoplifter has no right to park in the lot, would mean that such cars would have a tow called on them the second the shoplifter gets out of their car and walks into view of a camera. This wouldn’t work in most of the world, but in the car-centered US, I could see it being a very effective deterrent.
- MichaelGroves 5y ago
  I recently saw a viral video of a seagull shoplifting a bag of chips. The automatic doors didn't open for the seagull, so the bird just waited until a permitted human approached the door. A "mantrap" entrance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantrap_(access_control) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantrap_(access_control) ) could solve this, but I think many stores don't have the space for it. That 7-11 doesn't. Also, neither the cops nor the towing company will show up in time to do anything about it.
  - derefr 5y ago
    Thank you; a mantrap was exactly what I was trying to describe in my other comments, but didn't know the word for it. It's not true that a 7-11 doesn't have room for a mantrap; remember that an unmanned store doesn't have a cash register / checkout counter, or any space behind such for a person to stand. A manned store could be retrofitted into a secure unmanned store by installing the mantrap entrance into exactly that area.
- JohnFen 5y ago
  > the doors of the store just not opening for shoplifters (or at all, while shoplifters continue to be present — to prevent shoplifters from sneaking in ahead/behind a non-blacklisted customer.) This is illegal in my state. And, I'm guessing, in most other US states as well.
  - derefr 5y ago
    Do you mean that denying entry is illegal, or denying exit is? Because these unmanned stores do let you leave; they just have separate entry and exit doors, which have mutual-exclusion locking (like an airlock) such that nobody can enter the store through the exit door by getting someone inside the store to open the inner door. (You could slip into the little individual exit hall through the outer exit door; but the inner door in the little exit hall would remain locked until you left and it detected there were no longer people in the hall. Presuming a high-traffic store, this also wouldn't hold anything up, as other customers would continue to exit through the bank of other exit halls to either side of you.) I haven't checked, but presumably pulling a fire alarm inside the store would disable all this security, flinging both the entry and exit doors open. But you can't reach the fire alarm in the exit hall; it's not "inside" the store. The only thing you can do in the exit hall, is exit (which you are always free to do.)

tubbs 5y ago

This will surely help reintegrate former criminals into society.

spoonjim 5y ago

Given the numerous videos of shoplifters just walking into SF stores and stealing in plain view while being recorded, I doubt this will stop any of them. Unless there is some change to the system of policies that cause stores to do effectively nothing about shoplifting, it’s not going to stop.

chubot 5y ago

Meh I think it’s going to be acceptable to wear a mask for at least 5 years, and perhaps indefinitely, which easily defeats facial recognition.

mikem170 5y ago
They can already identify people wearing masks [0]: > a normal face mask doesn’t help you ‘evade’ facial recognition [0] https://privacyinternational.org/news-analysis/4511/can-covid-19-face-mask-protect-you-facial-recognition-technology-too https://privacyinternational.org/news-analysis/4511/can-covi...
- logifail 5y ago
  > They can already identify people wearing masks There were stories in Germany reporting that if you wore a face mask when driving, you must not also be wearing sunglasses and/or a hat ... because the driver's face must be recognisable if you're caught by a speed camera.
- chubot 5y ago
  Hm interesting, so I guess like all things in security/privacy it boils down to an economic war :-/ How much effort are you willing to put into masks vs. how much effort an adversary is willing to spend to defeat it. It says that there is no single face mask that can defeat every system. That's an interesting point, but what about the converse? There's probably no single recognition system that can defeat every mask. edit: I also think it's not that unacceptable to wear a mask and sunglasses anymore either, though I've never tried. Maybe you have an eye issue and don't want to get COVID :)
- JohnFen 5y ago
  A fair number of systems are still foiled by masks, as long as the mask covers the entire lower face and is black.
mortehu 5y ago
Buildings in New York have already switched the cameras they use to take visitor pass photos with ones that see through the mask, so you don't have to take off your mask anymore.

mikem170 5y ago

Even worse, wait until you somehow acidently find yourself on the shoplifter list. Who are they going to believe, the all knowing facial recognition algorithm, or the lying thief it just identified? What company is going to budget the time and manpower to bother checking?

opportune 5y ago

This is only bad if there is no way to appeal such a decision. If implemented well this is probably a good thing. Shoplifting raises prices/reduces availability for shoppers who don’t shoplift (yes, it lowers profit too. It does both).

JohnFen 5y ago
> This is only bad if there is no way to appeal such a decision. This is only true if being falsely accused didn't cost you anything (in terms of time, money, etc.), and if the cost of appealling is zero.

ccheney 5y ago

How about dynamically changing prices as you move around the store based on the data they have about your person (income, etc) (some stores have been implementing digital price tags)