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There's an important additional aspect to bikeshedding: the conversation gets sidetracked onto the distraction-level details very much because the main conversa

There's an important additional aspect to bikeshedding: the conversation gets sidetracked onto the distraction-level details very much because the main conversations are hard and everyone involved can understand and opine on the simpler topic. And that might not be true of the more important activity. It's a procrastination-like thing: let's convince ourselves we're being productive planning this trivial thing while the other big, scary, difficult thing lurks behind us ominously...

emodendroket 5y ago
Yeah, kind of the same thing as when you check your email and complete a bunch of other trivial tasks because you're struggling with what you actually need to get done.
- toxik 5y ago
  This is neither the time nor the place to talk about my work ethic. Cleaning my desk or going through my inbox instead of doing whatever needs to be done is just my brain cargo-culting "working at a computer in an office", not unlike a toddler imitating grown-ups. At this point it's very useful to train yourself to talk to somebody about what you need to do, or write a list of the steps you need to take and keep breaking it into smaller parts, until you find it's easier to do what you were about to write than to write it. It's a classic trick, I call it "starting with a corner", from when you were a child and you had to color the entire background with blue -- it was so off-putting, even if you knew /how/ to do it, it was so much work. But if you start with a corner, at least you got somewhere.
  - DavidAdams 5y ago
    I was disappointed that this article didn't include "cargo cult," which is my personal favorite tech industry idiom.
    - bookofjoe 5y ago
      "Cargo Cult Science" — Richard P. Feynman's 1974 Caltech commencement address: https://calteches.library.caltech.edu/51/2/CargoCult.htm https://calteches.library.caltech.edu/51/2/CargoCult.htm
    - kemayo 5y ago
      I used it in conversation with my spouse the other day and was legitimately surprised to realize that it wasn't in common usage. Or that I apparently had failed to use the term in their hearing in the past 20 years of us knowing each other.
  - mr-wendel 5y ago
    Here, here! Two tricks in my bag for this: 1. Exactly you already said: "write a list of the steps you need to take and keep breaking it into smaller parts" :) 2. Play competing heel-dragging tasks against each other, when possible. I find that doing this ensures that sustained effort is almost guaranteed to be more productive (and it doesn't take long) than trying to do a controlled, focused burst to get something out of the way.
hinkley 5y ago
The canonical case in software teams is arguing about code style guidelines. Almost never do the structural elements of good code organization get discussed. Instead we wrap around the axle arguing about things like bracket placement and whitespace. Usually in a manner which damages team cohesiveness rather than building it.
- denton-scratch 5y ago
  But, but, but: bracket placement and whitespace matter! It's a real drag to have to edit a piece of code in which the conventions for brackets and space are all over the place. It doesn't matter what conventions you adopt. But not adopting any creates unnecessary friction.
  - hinkley 5y ago
    Yes, they do matter, but not as much as using accurate words for things. I know people who use the same noun or adjective for four incompatible concepts in their code. Buy a goddamned thesaurus, or use a free one online. It’s okay to reach out for help on things you struggle with instead of making the rest of of us suffer. You can reduce the white space conversation to picking a good code formatted. But no formatted is going to fix your nightmare code that you claim is “self documenting”. Fuck that guy. Or better, fire him. Get that weak sauce outta here.
denton-scratch 5y ago
This is related to another CNP thing: committees. It's a long time since I read it, but he says something like: "A committee consists of a number of people with special expertise in various matters; and a chairman, who is expert in none. In a cabinet, the chairman is known as the Prime Minister". It's related, because that shortage of expertise is what leads the committee to spend more time on the bikeshed's paintjob than on the safety of the reactor. Everyone's an expert on bikesheds.

emodendroket 5y ago

Yeah, kind of the same thing as when you check your email and complete a bunch of other trivial tasks because you're struggling with what you actually need to get done.

toxik 5y ago
This is neither the time nor the place to talk about my work ethic. Cleaning my desk or going through my inbox instead of doing whatever needs to be done is just my brain cargo-culting "working at a computer in an office", not unlike a toddler imitating grown-ups. At this point it's very useful to train yourself to talk to somebody about what you need to do, or write a list of the steps you need to take and keep breaking it into smaller parts, until you find it's easier to do what you were about to write than to write it. It's a classic trick, I call it "starting with a corner", from when you were a child and you had to color the entire background with blue -- it was so off-putting, even if you knew /how/ to do it, it was so much work. But if you start with a corner, at least you got somewhere.
- DavidAdams 5y ago
  I was disappointed that this article didn't include "cargo cult," which is my personal favorite tech industry idiom.
  - bookofjoe 5y ago
    "Cargo Cult Science" — Richard P. Feynman's 1974 Caltech commencement address: https://calteches.library.caltech.edu/51/2/CargoCult.htm https://calteches.library.caltech.edu/51/2/CargoCult.htm
  - kemayo 5y ago
    I used it in conversation with my spouse the other day and was legitimately surprised to realize that it wasn't in common usage. Or that I apparently had failed to use the term in their hearing in the past 20 years of us knowing each other.
- mr-wendel 5y ago
  Here, here! Two tricks in my bag for this: 1. Exactly you already said: "write a list of the steps you need to take and keep breaking it into smaller parts" :) 2. Play competing heel-dragging tasks against each other, when possible. I find that doing this ensures that sustained effort is almost guaranteed to be more productive (and it doesn't take long) than trying to do a controlled, focused burst to get something out of the way.

hinkley 5y ago

The canonical case in software teams is arguing about code style guidelines. Almost never do the structural elements of good code organization get discussed. Instead we wrap around the axle arguing about things like bracket placement and whitespace. Usually in a manner which damages team cohesiveness rather than building it.

denton-scratch 5y ago
But, but, but: bracket placement and whitespace matter! It's a real drag to have to edit a piece of code in which the conventions for brackets and space are all over the place. It doesn't matter what conventions you adopt. But not adopting any creates unnecessary friction.
- hinkley 5y ago
  Yes, they do matter, but not as much as using accurate words for things. I know people who use the same noun or adjective for four incompatible concepts in their code. Buy a goddamned thesaurus, or use a free one online. It’s okay to reach out for help on things you struggle with instead of making the rest of of us suffer. You can reduce the white space conversation to picking a good code formatted. But no formatted is going to fix your nightmare code that you claim is “self documenting”. Fuck that guy. Or better, fire him. Get that weak sauce outta here.

denton-scratch 5y ago

This is related to another CNP thing: committees. It's a long time since I read it, but he says something like: "A committee consists of a number of people with special expertise in various matters; and a chairman, who is expert in none. In a cabinet, the chairman is known as the Prime Minister". It's related, because that shortage of expertise is what leads the committee to spend more time on the bikeshed's paintjob than on the safety of the reactor. Everyone's an expert on bikesheds.