4 ms·

These kinds of comments detract from the horror of the crimes in Guantanamo. It reminds me a bit of when Americans opposed to mask mandates liken them to having

by md_ 5y ago

These kinds of comments detract from the horror of the crimes in Guantanamo. It reminds me a bit of when Americans opposed to mask mandates liken them to having to wear yellow Stars of David. Guantanamo detainees were tortured with stress positions, sexual abuse (including simulated rape), simulated executions (including being taken out to sea and told they would be thrown overboard), held in cold rooms, and told their family members would be arrested and put in prison. This includes detainees who were later exonerated. In comparison, Assange has been...in British custody pending the results of an extradition hearing? While contesting credible (be they right or wrong) charges of rape? There's something deeply unjust in making this a discussion about Assange.

sofixa 5y ago
> This includes detainees who were later exonerated That's one way of putting it. It would be more accurate to say for the vast majority of the detainees, there was never any tangible proof of crimes and they were fully innocent.
BLKNSLVR 5y ago
I think it provides a worthwhile perspective as to the motivations of the US and what actions it considers to be important enough to put non-trivial effort and resources towards the pursuit and punishment of. ie. Not the doing of the things, but the public revelation of the doing of the things. I think it's entirely pertinent to the discussion.
- md_ 5y ago
  > I think it provides a worthwhile perspective as to the motivations of the US and what actions it considers to be important enough to put non-trivial effort and resources towards the pursuit and punishment of. "The US" is not a monolith. Guantanamo--both the rapid expansion and ingestion of likely-innocent bystanders and the torture program--was an effort of the Bush-era Defense Department, specifically with high-level support from Donald Rumsfeld and legal cover from the Office of Legal Counsel (John Yoo). The Assange extradition was a project of the Obama-era Justice Department. It's hard to see any commonalities (in terms of goals or decision-making) at the implementation level, and whatever else you think of Assange, the US's extradition requests have, essentially, followed both international norms and American and international law. You can try to see some sort of historical through-line here about American imperialism (and you might be right), but, as with my above analogy, that's like saying "the Star of David analogy is pertinent because it relates to the abuse of government power." At a sufficient abstraction that's true, but it still doesn't shed a lot of light.
  - BLKNSLVR 5y ago
    The "War on Terror" line runs directly through Guantanamo and Assange, and I see a definite a consistency of US foreign policy across all the administrations involved throughout. The biggest change I've seen in the last 20 years is the recent (sudden?) withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan. To be clear, I don't think you're wrong, I think we're just coming in at different angles of subjectivity, and the above is just how I see it from where I am.
    - md_ 5y ago
      Thanks for the polite reply. :)
      - BLKNSLVR 5y ago
        Thanks for clearly explaining your perspective. I appreciate clearly explained counter-arguments to my, sometimes backed by overly-dramatic language, opinions :)
FeepingCreature 5y ago
yo not disagreeing, I just want to add, there's a term for "simulated rape" it's called "rape"
sschueller 5y ago
According to the UN Assange has undergone continuous phycological torture [1]. I know the US considers phycological torture as enhanced interrogation tactics but the UN sees it as torture. [1] https://www.ohchr.org/en/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=25249 https://www.ohchr.org/en/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?N...
- md_ 5y ago
  To paraphrase @popehat, this is just how federal prisons are. (OK, I don't know how such prisons are in the UK, but presumably they're bad.) That's a Bad Thing, for sure. But I suspect most of Assange's fans aren't upset about the treatment of Assange because they oppose the carceral state; it's because they're fans of Assange. In other words, if you say "I'm opposed to the conditions of Assange's detention", I suspect you're not saying you oppose the normal conditions of legal detention--which perhaps you should--but, rather, that you are opposed to the fact that those norms we happily apply to millions are being applied to Assange.
  - Macha 5y ago
    It's not unheard of for one western country to refuse extradition to another because of poor standards of prison systems. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/10/dutch-court-blocks-extradition-of-man-to-inhumane-uk-prisons https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/10/dutch-court-bl... From what I've found, the UK in particular is not in a huge position to throw stones given the standards of their prisons result in this being yet another area where they're a sort of mini-USA. But e.g. the Swedish system would be better.
  - Mirioron 5y ago
    Prisons shouldn't be allowed to be that way to begin with.
    - md_ 5y ago
      Agreed! I wish more people would focus on that, instead of being focused on one particular prison resident (and far from the most sympathetic, in my view).

by md_ 5y ago

sofixa 5y ago

> This includes detainees who were later exonerated That's one way of putting it. It would be more accurate to say for the vast majority of the detainees, there was never any tangible proof of crimes and they were fully innocent.

BLKNSLVR 5y ago

I think it provides a worthwhile perspective as to the motivations of the US and what actions it considers to be important enough to put non-trivial effort and resources towards the pursuit and punishment of. ie. Not the doing of the things, but the public revelation of the doing of the things. I think it's entirely pertinent to the discussion.

md_ 5y ago
> I think it provides a worthwhile perspective as to the motivations of the US and what actions it considers to be important enough to put non-trivial effort and resources towards the pursuit and punishment of. "The US" is not a monolith. Guantanamo--both the rapid expansion and ingestion of likely-innocent bystanders and the torture program--was an effort of the Bush-era Defense Department, specifically with high-level support from Donald Rumsfeld and legal cover from the Office of Legal Counsel (John Yoo). The Assange extradition was a project of the Obama-era Justice Department. It's hard to see any commonalities (in terms of goals or decision-making) at the implementation level, and whatever else you think of Assange, the US's extradition requests have, essentially, followed both international norms and American and international law. You can try to see some sort of historical through-line here about American imperialism (and you might be right), but, as with my above analogy, that's like saying "the Star of David analogy is pertinent because it relates to the abuse of government power." At a sufficient abstraction that's true, but it still doesn't shed a lot of light.
- BLKNSLVR 5y ago
  The "War on Terror" line runs directly through Guantanamo and Assange, and I see a definite a consistency of US foreign policy across all the administrations involved throughout. The biggest change I've seen in the last 20 years is the recent (sudden?) withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan. To be clear, I don't think you're wrong, I think we're just coming in at different angles of subjectivity, and the above is just how I see it from where I am.
  - md_ 5y ago
    Thanks for the polite reply. :)
    - BLKNSLVR 5y ago
      Thanks for clearly explaining your perspective. I appreciate clearly explained counter-arguments to my, sometimes backed by overly-dramatic language, opinions :)

FeepingCreature 5y ago

yo not disagreeing, I just want to add, there's a term for "simulated rape" it's called "rape"

sschueller 5y ago

According to the UN Assange has undergone continuous phycological torture [1]. I know the US considers phycological torture as enhanced interrogation tactics but the UN sees it as torture. [1] https://www.ohchr.org/en/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=25249 https://www.ohchr.org/en/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?N...

md_ 5y ago
To paraphrase @popehat, this is just how federal prisons are. (OK, I don't know how such prisons are in the UK, but presumably they're bad.) That's a Bad Thing, for sure. But I suspect most of Assange's fans aren't upset about the treatment of Assange because they oppose the carceral state; it's because they're fans of Assange. In other words, if you say "I'm opposed to the conditions of Assange's detention", I suspect you're not saying you oppose the normal conditions of legal detention--which perhaps you should--but, rather, that you are opposed to the fact that those norms we happily apply to millions are being applied to Assange.
- Macha 5y ago
  It's not unheard of for one western country to refuse extradition to another because of poor standards of prison systems. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/10/dutch-court-blocks-extradition-of-man-to-inhumane-uk-prisons https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/10/dutch-court-bl... From what I've found, the UK in particular is not in a huge position to throw stones given the standards of their prisons result in this being yet another area where they're a sort of mini-USA. But e.g. the Swedish system would be better.
- Mirioron 5y ago
  Prisons shouldn't be allowed to be that way to begin with.
  - md_ 5y ago
    Agreed! I wish more people would focus on that, instead of being focused on one particular prison resident (and far from the most sympathetic, in my view).