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My understanding is that it's only economical to bury utility lines when there is frequent enough inclement weather to bring them down, which definitely isn't t
by thirtyseven 5y ago
My understanding is that it's only economical to bury utility lines when there is frequent enough inclement weather to bring them down, which definitely isn't the case in San Jose.
- beerandt 5y agoEven then it's not worth it, unless there's some unique risk or liability they're worried about, like near airports. Retrofits in urban areas are especially expensive, because any good contractor knows there's gonna be unknown problems once you start digging. Most places that have underground electric in the US have it either because it's mandated by local code or because the original developer was willing to pay for it. Hypothetically, enough bad weather would make burying it economical, but I've never heard of any particular instance where that was the case.
- chrisseaton 5y agoI wonder why it's routinely buried in the UK - we're a lot poorer, don't have extreme weather, and retrofits must have been far more complex here.
- x0x0 5y agoI suspect this is a big component: uk population density: 281/km2; us population density:36/km2. Obviously not a perfect comparison because density is highly variable, but the US is just so so much more spread out than european countries.
- chrisseaton 5y agoIsn't this San Jose? Eastern end of Silicon Valley, population density in the thousands, and home of the super-rich?
- dboreham 5y agoElectrical distribution plant generally follows the same code everywhere in the country. Also when SJ was first electrified it was a rural area.
- beerandt 5y agoThe electrical grids in general were fundamentally designed differently from country to country, including the voltage difference. That took into account what was cost effective from the perspective of large scale deployment, and then individual elements are designed from (and are intertwined with) everything downstream from that. So even if two cities (one US and one UK) were/are nearly identical, the resulting grid is going to end up being laid out very differently.
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- bb611 5y agoThe neighborhood in question was built in the late 1960s, underground has been the default for a few decades now but this neighborhood (along with many others through SJ) is just all old construction. There's no real justification for moving the power underground, even in rich neighborhoods most streets still have power via poles unless they're relatively new.
- ojbyrne 5y ago1. Yes 2. I don’t think so. But the way way people describe the geography here is weird. Usually people say it’s the southern end. 3. It’s pretty sprawly, car is king, generally the threat of earthquakes and nimbyism has resulted in low density. I doubt ‘thousands’ though I’m not clear on your units. 4. Highly doubtful. The super-rich mostly live in the suburbs or exurbs of SJ, where it’s cooler (temperature wise) and less urban. Los Gatos, Mountain View, Palo Alto, Woodside, Menlo Park, Atherton, etc.
- beerandt 5y agoThere are a lot of interesting differences in the basic grid designs and layouts that are a result of the 120 vs 240 voltage differences. Everything from number of transformers, to distances between substations, to the required line separation and clearance from ground. It all results in fundamental cost differences, that were originally calculated based on density and distances, with US being low density/ large distance and the opposite for the UK. I'm sure there's related consequences with line burial, but I don't know if that's the reason it's so common in the UK.
- nwallin 5y agoBecause ya'll don't have any trees. Wooden utility poles are made from a single piece of wood, usually the trunk of a pine tree. It's cheap to toss a bunch of them on the back of a truck and drive them to wherever, but they're typically longer than a cargo container, so putting them on a ship is annoying. The forests in North America has lots of tall, straight pine trees but there are fewer forests in Europe and what forests there are tend to have more deciduous forests, where the trees are shorter, narrower, and ... squigglier. You could have shorter poles and fit them into cargo containers more easily, but now you're stuck with short utility poles. Concrete or metal utility poles are a thing, but they're more expensive.
- Symbiote 5y agoConcrete poles are almost as cheap as wood, once the longer lifetime and lower maintenance are appointed for. And anyway, Europe has plenty of farms pine/spruce forests. That Ikea furniture doesn't just appear. Europe buries power lines because they're considered ugly.
- smcl 5y agoIKEA furniture isn't generally made from large, straight individual pine trees though. They're pretty notorious for using particleboard
- pvaldes 5y agoAll, wooden, concrete and metallic poles over a concrete block are common in Europe. Sometimes is buried, other not. Maybe is not the best solution where the phreatic water level is too high (i.e. most mediterranean cities in the coast).
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- wumpus 5y agoThe Bay Area has a long-running plan to bury all of them anyway.
- m0llusk 5y agoWhich has gotten very bogged down. Undergrounding in San Francisco has all but stopped because of the expense. More ominous is the Palo Alto experience. Quite some time ago, like late 60s or early 70s or there about, Palo Alto undergrounded its utility lines. Since then the combination of clay soils and earthquakes has done enormous damage to the point that the City may have to rebuild their entire utility infrastructure. Seeing Palo Alto confront this enormous unexpected expense is giving pause to local governments all over the bay.
- wumpus 5y agoIt would be fun to talk to you about it -- I moved to the part of Palo Alto with underground lines in 2013 -- but people are downvoting me, so, sorry.
- jazzyjackson 5y agogetting downvoted is no reason to keep to yourself :/ its people moderating the overall discussion, not trying to punish you or silence you or something (getting flagged is another matter ofc...)
- bagels 5y agoWhere can I read about this?
- Nasrudith 5y agoThat explains things - in my experience I have seen money as the most conspicuous main barrier in the Northeast. Get above a certain threshold of wealth and even in sparse areas they go underground and poorer areas can get a bit more density than usual before being forced underground. A suburb with power lines is on the lower side of middle class. An urban area with power lines is practically a red flag for poverty for the two go together. Reminds me of the joke about cancer risk and lowered IQs and power lines - the mechanism of the damage is insidious - it doesn't act through radiation but through lowered property values.
- cafard 5y agoIt's economical for new developments. I lived some years about a mile outside the Washington Beltway, in a rowhouse development built in the mid-80s. Everything had been done on the cheap, but the utility lines were underground.
- c_o_n_v_e_x 5y agoLocal geology is a factor. Trenching through mud, clay, or sand is going to be a lot cheaper than rock.