4 ms·

Offense is the best defense. It's naive to think that as an individual giving up a car or showers will make a difference compared to the unfettered pollution of

Offense is the best defense. It's naive to think that as an individual giving up a car or showers will make a difference compared to the unfettered pollution of multinationals. Policy change, law, economic incentives, with teeth - this is how to make an impact. Stay in your long shower, and pick up the phone afterward to call your congressperson, or to raise awareness about a climate bill, or to donate to a climate nonprofit.

luckylion 5y ago
Some multinational will create much more pollution than any individual, but it's also effectively distributed on all of their customers "account". So while a toaster manufacturer might create more pollution than someone's trip to Bali, if you divide by the numbers of toasters the produce, that 20k km round trip will outweigh the toaster. And the individual has total control over their holidays and can make a difference. They just choose not to, because it's easier to say "the world must change, what good is it if I do something".
- ZeroGravitas 5y ago
  Your slightly absurd comparison of a toaster to a trip to Bali has made me realise I don't actually have a solid grasp of the relative carbon contribution of each, compared with each other and the total that a society outputs. You hear a lot about flying to holidays being something we have to give up, but that seems so flagrantly designed to annoy people that I feel the source is more likely to be climate change deniers than actual environmentalists. Are holidays really a big thing? I know flights are technically hard to decarbonise today, but I don't think I've ever seen numbers suggesting they're a big priority compared with the low hanging fruit or that individual action is the best way to solve it.
  - ZeroGravitas 5y ago
    Carbon offsetting a round trip to Bali comes in at around $120 dollars on the first site I tried. No idea on their specific methodology etc. but I do believe that the general principle of using financial tools to find the best solutuons to problems is sound. But that seems like a sacrifice thats roughly on par with buying a toaster and likely is immaterial in the context of a vacation halfway around the world. But I'd guess the kind of person that wants someone to fix their holidays personally before they fix the toaster industry (or the agriculture industry that makes the bread they toast) is likely to reject such a solution for some reason as it makes solving climate change a bit too easy, and applying market forces and capitalism to replace fossil fuels is just as much of a threat as government regulation of the same thing. Is there any solution that they're going to like if the direct result is to reduce the wealth, power and influence of the oil and gas industry?
  - luckylion 5y ago
    > Are holidays really a big thing? I know flights are technically hard to decarbonise today, but I don't think I've ever seen numbers suggesting they're a big priority compared with the low hanging fruit or that individual action is the best way to solve it. But leisure travel is an extremely low-hanging fruit when compared with e.g. food, isn't it? Nobody has to take a vacation by plane, but everybody has to eat. The tourist industry is pretty wasteful and similar to the fashion industry: it's pretty much entirely unnecessary luxury. Compare that to e.g. concrete manufacturers or farms, they're not only necessary, they're pretty far from the top of the pyramid: you'll have a very hard time without them.

luckylion 5y ago

Some multinational will create much more pollution than any individual, but it's also effectively distributed on all of their customers "account". So while a toaster manufacturer might create more pollution than someone's trip to Bali, if you divide by the numbers of toasters the produce, that 20k km round trip will outweigh the toaster. And the individual has total control over their holidays and can make a difference. They just choose not to, because it's easier to say "the world must change, what good is it if I do something".

ZeroGravitas 5y ago
Your slightly absurd comparison of a toaster to a trip to Bali has made me realise I don't actually have a solid grasp of the relative carbon contribution of each, compared with each other and the total that a society outputs. You hear a lot about flying to holidays being something we have to give up, but that seems so flagrantly designed to annoy people that I feel the source is more likely to be climate change deniers than actual environmentalists. Are holidays really a big thing? I know flights are technically hard to decarbonise today, but I don't think I've ever seen numbers suggesting they're a big priority compared with the low hanging fruit or that individual action is the best way to solve it.
- ZeroGravitas 5y ago
  Carbon offsetting a round trip to Bali comes in at around $120 dollars on the first site I tried. No idea on their specific methodology etc. but I do believe that the general principle of using financial tools to find the best solutuons to problems is sound. But that seems like a sacrifice thats roughly on par with buying a toaster and likely is immaterial in the context of a vacation halfway around the world. But I'd guess the kind of person that wants someone to fix their holidays personally before they fix the toaster industry (or the agriculture industry that makes the bread they toast) is likely to reject such a solution for some reason as it makes solving climate change a bit too easy, and applying market forces and capitalism to replace fossil fuels is just as much of a threat as government regulation of the same thing. Is there any solution that they're going to like if the direct result is to reduce the wealth, power and influence of the oil and gas industry?
- luckylion 5y ago
  > Are holidays really a big thing? I know flights are technically hard to decarbonise today, but I don't think I've ever seen numbers suggesting they're a big priority compared with the low hanging fruit or that individual action is the best way to solve it. But leisure travel is an extremely low-hanging fruit when compared with e.g. food, isn't it? Nobody has to take a vacation by plane, but everybody has to eat. The tourist industry is pretty wasteful and similar to the fashion industry: it's pretty much entirely unnecessary luxury. Compare that to e.g. concrete manufacturers or farms, they're not only necessary, they're pretty far from the top of the pyramid: you'll have a very hard time without them.