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That's a fair point. I am thinking from the other end - if these efforts were instead redirected at supporting open hardware systems, how much more beneficial i

That's a fair point. I am thinking from the other end - if these efforts were instead redirected at supporting open hardware systems, how much more beneficial it would be for the open movement? By reverse engineering closed systems, you are adding value to it but not changing its nature - you are not really making it "open" (the next iteration will just "close" it again). Meanwhile, Apple just uses these reverse engineering effort cleverly for PR for the M1 through social media marketing. In effect, you are just helping a trillion dollar company design better closed systems while helping them make more money (by attracting naive Linux users to spend money on their hardware). There are open systems that are struggling because they don't have talented developers working on their projects. Wish these developers would instead work on these projects - Sailfish OS, PineOS, Librem - Purism etc. For example, there are a lot of Intel / Arm tablets that either run only Windows or Android. It would be nice to run one of these Linux based mobile OS distros on it, and create a genuine alternate to the Android / ios duopoly on Tablets, right?

scrollaway 5y ago
I don't think (and experimentally, I know I'm correct) it's as zero sum as you think it is. These efforts you think better spent on open hardware are actually adding value to the open systems by making transitions from closed systems easier. M1 is a beast and needs no further PR to attract buyers. You can ignore its advantages and yell out "our system sucks but at least it's open!", or, you can work on bringing the advantages of the product of a trillion dollar company's RND to the open world.
- webmobdev 5y ago
  I can understand an academic interest in reverse engineering such devices. But yes, I really don't see any advantages in owning a closed and limiting system like the Apple M1, when better and more open alternates already exist. The limitations of such hyped-up closed system negate any short-term temporary benefits it offers. And regardless of what you think, the M1 does need constant marketing as its limitations becomes obvious. Apple is betting their future on such closed systems and desperately needs it to be a success. That is why Apple marketing is desperate to spread PR fluffs about it to its Apple fans that ignorantly parrot them on the social media on threads like these: - Apple has effectively made it easier for OSs like Linux to have good support for the hardware - Ok, but they’ve done the opposite- helping linux projects get linux on M1 macs.. ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27943196 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27943196 ) ... and similar statements like these that try to convey that Apple is actually helping developers port Linux to their platform. Obviously, any posts (like mine) that point out the obvious lie in these statements are downvoted / vote-brigaded because it is in Apple's interest to do so.
  - scrollaway 5y ago
    > Obviously, any posts (like mine) that point out the obvious lie in these statements are downvoted / vote-brigaded because it is in Apple's interest to do so. No, quit the Dunning-Kruger, you're being downvoted because most people here disagree with you. Myself included: I don't particularly like Apple, I'm not paid by Apple, I'm a life-long proponent of FOSS and open systems, and I downvoted you because your posts are uninformed and either you haven't thought this through, or you don't have enough context to know what you're talking about. Insinuations of shilling/astroturfing are against the guidelines, FYI.
    - webmobdev 5y ago
      Insinuations against particular individuals are against the guidelines, not a blanket ban on mentioning that astroturfing / shillings are an accepted reality of today's social media as part of social media marketing. And I recognize that sometimes what is said is out of ignorance on the part of the poster, (which is what I have highlighted). That said, I have no hesitation in pointing out that that calling my posts "uninformed", without actually providing any actual context, is just a lazy and aggressive way of avoiding a discussion. Or you can engage with me and point out where my reasoning is flawed. Here's my stated position and reasoning for what I have said so far, and you can chime in with you thoughts: First, I started by pointing out that the beliefs of some Apple fans that Apple has made it easy and / or is actually helping developers to port Linux to the M1 is pure ignorance - Apple is doing no such things, but it is in their interest to let the public believe that. What is uninformed about this, in your opinion? Second, I voiced the opinion that "open source developers are wasting their time trying to support such a useless "closed" piece of hardware, and instead should be boycotting it". The reasoning behind it is obvious - supporting a closed black box system, like the M1, and the proliferation of such devices will mean we will lose more of our computing freedom / right-to-repair on the computers we own. Is it "uninformed" to point out that the M1 is a closed system that limits us, compared to Intel / AMD alternatives available? Or that the efforts of the developers will be a waste when Apple can, at any time, thwart or derail such reverse engineering attempts on the M1 by updating its firmware? Third, porting Linux to the M1 will make it attractive, and help its sale. But it is a short-sighted and regressive move that will not help the open-source movement, and will backfire on us as it will help to make such closed box systems popular. The better approach for the open source community is to actually publicly boycott and disparage the M1, so that Apple is forced to open up the M1. Porting Linux to it then would not only be easier, but also makes more sense. What is "uninformed" about this way of thinking? Fourth, while I do appreciate the strides made by Apple in developing their own custom ARM processors, I do genuinely believe that the technical gains (more computing power) are competitively temporary - both AMD and Intel systems have at some point always shown such leads. And it is not far fetched to say that this technical lead is even negated due to it's closed box nature. Do you think I am wrong in concluding that AMD / Intel will not catch up, or even overtake, Apple ARM processors?
TimTheTinker 5y ago
> By reverse engineering closed systems, you are adding value to it but not changing its nature (the next iteration will just "close" it again). That argument would totally hold for iOS devices: you might find a bug and create a jailbreak on a particular iOS version, but that "hole" closes by the time the next major version comes out. Apple really doesn't want to allow other operating systems (or even root access). But reverse-engineering macOS hardware is very different. A solid Linux port like Asahi fundamentally changes the nature of Apple M1 computers: they can be great Linux machines (and given m1n1's versatility, maybe even Windows machines!), not just macOS machines. Sure, Apple might "close" things again in the future, but that future is a long way off. They have given no indication of hostility to Asahi, so it's most likely that Apple computers will run Linux without any trouble until they release their next brand-new architecture. If history is any indication, that transition is likely more than 15 years in the future (68k was 1984-1994, PowerPC was 1994-2006, x86 was 2006-2021). > There are open systems that are struggling because they don't have talented developers working on their projects. Wish these developers would instead work on these projects - Sailfish OS, PineOS, Librem - Purism etc. For example, there are a lot of Intel / Arm tablets that either run only Windows or Android. It would be nice to run one of these Linux based mobile OS distros on it, and create a genuine alternate to the Android / ios duopoly on Tablets, right? I agree, that would be great in many ways. But honestly, all other things being equal, given a choice between running Linux on a Qualcomm ARM64, a Apple M1, or an Intel/AMD x64 chip, which one is the most desirable? Which will likely be the most desirable after the M1x or M2 comes out? At the most fundamental level, it's desirability that drives demand, which in turn decides which systems will be the most well-resourced.
zozbot234 5y ago
Many Windows tablets can actually run Linux just fine these days. It's a bit of a pain to install and the specs can be quite underwhelming, but the basic hardware support is there at last.
cestith 5y ago
Show me an open source hardware system as performant and power efficient as M1 and I'll throw some support (time, money, press, something) at it and forego using Asahi Linux. If, however, I can run an open software system on the M1 and also still run an open hardware system right beside it on the same desk while the hardware in the open hardware system plays catch-up, I'd rather do that. If everyone forwent open software because it didn't run on open hardware, we wouldn't have Linux, BSD, Darwin, FreeDOS, ReactOS, Haiku, OpenIndiana, X, Wayland, MySQL, Postgresql, KDE, Gnome, XFCE, i3, LibreOffice, Apache, Nginx, HAProxy, Kafka, Pulsar, gcc, clang, rust, Julia, Perl, Python, Ruby, Node, Chromium, Konqueror, Safari, Firefox, bash ... any open software at all. Your ideal taken to its conclusion is that we wait for RISC-V or OpenMIPS or something to catch up to ARM before we write or use any software. That's simply untenable. What software would we even have to port to such things if we couldn't develop open software on closed hardware? What use would RISC-V be outside of embedded projects without QNX, Linux, BSD, RiscOS, or something else developed originally on closed hardware to run on it?

scrollaway 5y ago

I don't think (and experimentally, I know I'm correct) it's as zero sum as you think it is. These efforts you think better spent on open hardware are actually adding value to the open systems by making transitions from closed systems easier. M1 is a beast and needs no further PR to attract buyers. You can ignore its advantages and yell out "our system sucks but at least it's open!", or, you can work on bringing the advantages of the product of a trillion dollar company's RND to the open world.

webmobdev 5y ago
I can understand an academic interest in reverse engineering such devices. But yes, I really don't see any advantages in owning a closed and limiting system like the Apple M1, when better and more open alternates already exist. The limitations of such hyped-up closed system negate any short-term temporary benefits it offers. And regardless of what you think, the M1 does need constant marketing as its limitations becomes obvious. Apple is betting their future on such closed systems and desperately needs it to be a success. That is why Apple marketing is desperate to spread PR fluffs about it to its Apple fans that ignorantly parrot them on the social media on threads like these: - Apple has effectively made it easier for OSs like Linux to have good support for the hardware - Ok, but they’ve done the opposite- helping linux projects get linux on M1 macs.. ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27943196 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27943196 ) ... and similar statements like these that try to convey that Apple is actually helping developers port Linux to their platform. Obviously, any posts (like mine) that point out the obvious lie in these statements are downvoted / vote-brigaded because it is in Apple's interest to do so.
- scrollaway 5y ago
  > Obviously, any posts (like mine) that point out the obvious lie in these statements are downvoted / vote-brigaded because it is in Apple's interest to do so. No, quit the Dunning-Kruger, you're being downvoted because most people here disagree with you. Myself included: I don't particularly like Apple, I'm not paid by Apple, I'm a life-long proponent of FOSS and open systems, and I downvoted you because your posts are uninformed and either you haven't thought this through, or you don't have enough context to know what you're talking about. Insinuations of shilling/astroturfing are against the guidelines, FYI.
  - webmobdev 5y ago
    Insinuations against particular individuals are against the guidelines, not a blanket ban on mentioning that astroturfing / shillings are an accepted reality of today's social media as part of social media marketing. And I recognize that sometimes what is said is out of ignorance on the part of the poster, (which is what I have highlighted). That said, I have no hesitation in pointing out that that calling my posts "uninformed", without actually providing any actual context, is just a lazy and aggressive way of avoiding a discussion. Or you can engage with me and point out where my reasoning is flawed. Here's my stated position and reasoning for what I have said so far, and you can chime in with you thoughts: First, I started by pointing out that the beliefs of some Apple fans that Apple has made it easy and / or is actually helping developers to port Linux to the M1 is pure ignorance - Apple is doing no such things, but it is in their interest to let the public believe that. What is uninformed about this, in your opinion? Second, I voiced the opinion that "open source developers are wasting their time trying to support such a useless "closed" piece of hardware, and instead should be boycotting it". The reasoning behind it is obvious - supporting a closed black box system, like the M1, and the proliferation of such devices will mean we will lose more of our computing freedom / right-to-repair on the computers we own. Is it "uninformed" to point out that the M1 is a closed system that limits us, compared to Intel / AMD alternatives available? Or that the efforts of the developers will be a waste when Apple can, at any time, thwart or derail such reverse engineering attempts on the M1 by updating its firmware? Third, porting Linux to the M1 will make it attractive, and help its sale. But it is a short-sighted and regressive move that will not help the open-source movement, and will backfire on us as it will help to make such closed box systems popular. The better approach for the open source community is to actually publicly boycott and disparage the M1, so that Apple is forced to open up the M1. Porting Linux to it then would not only be easier, but also makes more sense. What is "uninformed" about this way of thinking? Fourth, while I do appreciate the strides made by Apple in developing their own custom ARM processors, I do genuinely believe that the technical gains (more computing power) are competitively temporary - both AMD and Intel systems have at some point always shown such leads. And it is not far fetched to say that this technical lead is even negated due to it's closed box nature. Do you think I am wrong in concluding that AMD / Intel will not catch up, or even overtake, Apple ARM processors?

TimTheTinker 5y ago

> By reverse engineering closed systems, you are adding value to it but not changing its nature (the next iteration will just "close" it again). That argument would totally hold for iOS devices: you might find a bug and create a jailbreak on a particular iOS version, but that "hole" closes by the time the next major version comes out. Apple really doesn't want to allow other operating systems (or even root access). But reverse-engineering macOS hardware is very different. A solid Linux port like Asahi fundamentally changes the nature of Apple M1 computers: they can be great Linux machines (and given m1n1's versatility, maybe even Windows machines!), not just macOS machines. Sure, Apple might "close" things again in the future, but that future is a long way off. They have given no indication of hostility to Asahi, so it's most likely that Apple computers will run Linux without any trouble until they release their next brand-new architecture. If history is any indication, that transition is likely more than 15 years in the future (68k was 1984-1994, PowerPC was 1994-2006, x86 was 2006-2021). > There are open systems that are struggling because they don't have talented developers working on their projects. Wish these developers would instead work on these projects - Sailfish OS, PineOS, Librem - Purism etc. For example, there are a lot of Intel / Arm tablets that either run only Windows or Android. It would be nice to run one of these Linux based mobile OS distros on it, and create a genuine alternate to the Android / ios duopoly on Tablets, right? I agree, that would be great in many ways. But honestly, all other things being equal, given a choice between running Linux on a Qualcomm ARM64, a Apple M1, or an Intel/AMD x64 chip, which one is the most desirable? Which will likely be the most desirable after the M1x or M2 comes out? At the most fundamental level, it's desirability that drives demand, which in turn decides which systems will be the most well-resourced.

zozbot234 5y ago

Many Windows tablets can actually run Linux just fine these days. It's a bit of a pain to install and the specs can be quite underwhelming, but the basic hardware support is there at last.

cestith 5y ago

Show me an open source hardware system as performant and power efficient as M1 and I'll throw some support (time, money, press, something) at it and forego using Asahi Linux. If, however, I can run an open software system on the M1 and also still run an open hardware system right beside it on the same desk while the hardware in the open hardware system plays catch-up, I'd rather do that. If everyone forwent open software because it didn't run on open hardware, we wouldn't have Linux, BSD, Darwin, FreeDOS, ReactOS, Haiku, OpenIndiana, X, Wayland, MySQL, Postgresql, KDE, Gnome, XFCE, i3, LibreOffice, Apache, Nginx, HAProxy, Kafka, Pulsar, gcc, clang, rust, Julia, Perl, Python, Ruby, Node, Chromium, Konqueror, Safari, Firefox, bash ... any open software at all. Your ideal taken to its conclusion is that we wait for RISC-V or OpenMIPS or something to catch up to ARM before we write or use any software. That's simply untenable. What software would we even have to port to such things if we couldn't develop open software on closed hardware? What use would RISC-V be outside of embedded projects without QNX, Linux, BSD, RiscOS, or something else developed originally on closed hardware to run on it?