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>This kind of thinking will just lead to more misery than COVID its self. Lockdowns are causing poverty, drug addiction and suicides of young people. Its taking

by mthoms 5y ago

>This kind of thinking will just lead to more misery than COVID its self. Lockdowns are causing poverty, drug addiction and suicides of young people. Its taking decades off their lives, unlike COVID which mostly is deadly to those in their last year of life. First of all, none of the above misery is exclusive to young people. None. You seem to think young people are suffering more than most and it's not clear why. I don't want to go through line by line here because I truly feel like you're not thinking this whole thing through. So I have a proposal for how we continue this debate. Let's imagine a scenario: Covid restrictions and vaccines are halted in Canada... What happens next? Do we still treat the sick? If so, what happens when the healthcare system reaches its breaking point? Do we cut back on treating other illnesses? What do you think will happen to our taxes, the national debt, the economy? What will happen to international trade and personal travel? Will Canada be blacklisted? Will being thrown out with the trash by the younger generation be an inevitable part of growing old? What about old people who have devoted their lives to this country (ie. veterans)? And how will ignoring the elderly affect families? How will the millions of Covid deaths affect families? Will there be more misery and depression or less? Will suicides go up or down? Will doctors and scientists just stop caring because we ignored them? Will they stop giving us advice? Will anyone even want to be a doctor (or nurse)? This is a genuine question. I really want to understand what people such as yourself think will happen if we abolished these things. Side note: for the record, yes it is (very) illegal for someone with an STD to have unprotected sex with an unknowing partner in Canada.

dukeofdoom 5y ago
Sure, I will try to respond. > Covid restrictions and vaccines are halted in Canada... > What happens next? I am not for halting vaccines. Anyone that wants one should get one. Nothing happens. Those that are at high risk and want a vaccine should get one. > Do we still treat the sick? yes, obviously. This is a medical problem for sure, but its nowhere near overwhelming. We had months to prepare to expend capacity. Keep in mind that in Ontario, at the height of the pandemic, the overall death rate was 7-80 deaths / day. Total Deaths in Ontario: 2019-2020* 115,126 2018-2019 109,019 And the overall death rate is roughly inline with the population growth, which is about 1.7 percent. If official number of COVID deaths is accurate. 9,400 people died of COVID. Assuming those 9,400 deaths were all in the ICU and none at home or palliative care. There are 400 hospitals in the Province. So average of COVID deaths per hospital/per year is 9400/400 = 23.5 > What do you think will happen to our taxes, the national debt, the economy? 23.5 extra deaths/hospital/year. You think will do that? >Will being thrown out with the trash by the younger >generation be an inevitable part of growing old? The average age of a person that dies from COVID is around 85 years old. At that age, you are way past average life expectancy of 82 in Canada. So you did pretty well. You lead a full life before COVID got you. Again not the panic situation you think it is. Also, chances are if COVID did not get you at 85, something else would shortly. >What about old people who have devoted their lives to this >country (ie. veterans)? And how will ignoring the elderly >affect families? How will the millions of Covid deaths >affect families? No one is ignoring the elderly. There are not millions of Covid deaths in Canada. Canada is very well prepared to treat the sick. We have new treatments that work. They can take vaccines to reduce their risk. >Will there be more misery and depression or less? Will >suicides go up or down? Will doctors and scientists just > stop caring because we ignored them? Will they stop > giving us advice? Will anyone even want to be a doctor > ?(or nurse)? Since this seems like a hyperbolic exaggeration. I want you to consider that currently life or death decisions are made at hospitals all the time. We could extend the life of very ill old people right now, if we spent a few extra million per patient. Since hospitals don't have that kind of money. We are letting people die whose life we could prolong with extraordinary measures. Hope you realize that. These decisions are made at hospitals all the time. Give you an example. Dick Cheney is walking around with an artificial heart. Its an operation that would costs millions, but would extend the life of all those very old people that had heart attacks. Why do you think this is not being done? Why do you think hospitals will only offer such procedures to young patients if at all.
sleavey 5y ago
> I don't want to go through line by line here because I truly feel like you're not thinking this whole thing through. Can we have some more respect for each other? It's a basic premise in the UK parliament, and I would wager the Canadian parliament too, that the opponent is making their argument in good faith. It's assumed they want the best for the country and people too. Without this assumption, debates quickly descend into useless ad hominum attacks which just waste everyone's time. We could do with adopting this principle here too. Related to this, I'd like to point out that those hesitating to get vaccinated are not just the stereotypical "idiots", but also those with the highest levels of qualification [1]. [1] https://unherd.com/thepost/the-most-vaccine-hesitant-education-group-of-all-phds/ https://unherd.com/thepost/the-most-vaccine-hesitant-educati...

by mthoms 5y ago

dukeofdoom 5y ago

Sure, I will try to respond. > Covid restrictions and vaccines are halted in Canada... > What happens next? I am not for halting vaccines. Anyone that wants one should get one. Nothing happens. Those that are at high risk and want a vaccine should get one. > Do we still treat the sick? yes, obviously. This is a medical problem for sure, but its nowhere near overwhelming. We had months to prepare to expend capacity. Keep in mind that in Ontario, at the height of the pandemic, the overall death rate was 7-80 deaths / day. Total Deaths in Ontario: 2019-2020* 115,126 2018-2019 109,019 And the overall death rate is roughly inline with the population growth, which is about 1.7 percent. If official number of COVID deaths is accurate. 9,400 people died of COVID. Assuming those 9,400 deaths were all in the ICU and none at home or palliative care. There are 400 hospitals in the Province. So average of COVID deaths per hospital/per year is 9400/400 = 23.5 > What do you think will happen to our taxes, the national debt, the economy? 23.5 extra deaths/hospital/year. You think will do that? >Will being thrown out with the trash by the younger >generation be an inevitable part of growing old? The average age of a person that dies from COVID is around 85 years old. At that age, you are way past average life expectancy of 82 in Canada. So you did pretty well. You lead a full life before COVID got you. Again not the panic situation you think it is. Also, chances are if COVID did not get you at 85, something else would shortly. >What about old people who have devoted their lives to this >country (ie. veterans)? And how will ignoring the elderly >affect families? How will the millions of Covid deaths >affect families? No one is ignoring the elderly. There are not millions of Covid deaths in Canada. Canada is very well prepared to treat the sick. We have new treatments that work. They can take vaccines to reduce their risk. >Will there be more misery and depression or less? Will >suicides go up or down? Will doctors and scientists just > stop caring because we ignored them? Will they stop > giving us advice? Will anyone even want to be a doctor > ?(or nurse)? Since this seems like a hyperbolic exaggeration. I want you to consider that currently life or death decisions are made at hospitals all the time. We could extend the life of very ill old people right now, if we spent a few extra million per patient. Since hospitals don't have that kind of money. We are letting people die whose life we could prolong with extraordinary measures. Hope you realize that. These decisions are made at hospitals all the time. Give you an example. Dick Cheney is walking around with an artificial heart. Its an operation that would costs millions, but would extend the life of all those very old people that had heart attacks. Why do you think this is not being done? Why do you think hospitals will only offer such procedures to young patients if at all.

sleavey 5y ago

> I don't want to go through line by line here because I truly feel like you're not thinking this whole thing through. Can we have some more respect for each other? It's a basic premise in the UK parliament, and I would wager the Canadian parliament too, that the opponent is making their argument in good faith. It's assumed they want the best for the country and people too. Without this assumption, debates quickly descend into useless ad hominum attacks which just waste everyone's time. We could do with adopting this principle here too. Related to this, I'd like to point out that those hesitating to get vaccinated are not just the stereotypical "idiots", but also those with the highest levels of qualification [1]. [1] https://unherd.com/thepost/the-most-vaccine-hesitant-education-group-of-all-phds/ https://unherd.com/thepost/the-most-vaccine-hesitant-educati...