5 ms·

Even more relevant today. It seems like most software by both large corporations, and open-source projects, is bloated and poorly-designed - from both UI and pe

Even more relevant today. It seems like most software by both large corporations, and open-source projects, is bloated and poorly-designed - from both UI and performance perspectives. Few programs respond as quickly as they should, given project requirements and hardware. I think this is one of the reasons I'm enjoying embedded programming so much - I can make things as responsive and clear as I'd like, with no OS layer to build upon. I've been doing it in Rust, and among the Rust embedded OSS community, there's already a tendency towards complexity-by-default. Examples are execution frameworks without regards to if they fit a given problem, and over-use of traits, which makes code significantly more complex, with questionable benefit. Challenge: Come up with a list of websites that scores above 95 on Google page Speed insights. HN is one. The article linked here is another. Generally, programming-language home pages do well. What about the startup sites under `Show HN`?

Retric 5y ago
What I can’t stand is even just operating systems alone aren’t responsive. We can render complex 3D worlds at 120FPS but somehow opening a freaking menu causes noticeable lag.
- Tcepsa 5y ago
  To be fair to the operating systems out there, GUIs are part of the program, not part of the operating system. If a menu is unresponsive it is far more likely that the writers of the software messed up and put some heavy lifting on their event loop or misused the GUI framework that they choose rather than any fault of the OS. That having been said I do agree that it is disappointing how sluggish some apparently-straightforward applications have gotten despite the hardware performance increases over the years.
  - toast0 5y ago
    Most GUI driven OSes at least endorsed a framework/toolkit even if it's not exactly part of the OS. Some of those make it very hard to do things quickly. I don't think you can make a fast Android app using the endorsed toolkit. It simply takes too long for the widget constructors to run.
  - Retric 5y ago
    Take a Windows 10 PC that just booted without loading any 3rd party stuff. Wait say 60 seconds to should really be ready, hit the windows key and there is a noticeable delay. I get it not everything needs to be instantaneous, but even basic OS features like browsing files on a local SSD has all kinds of little pauses. Mac, Linux, iOS and Android all have the same sorts of issues.
    - LAC-Tech 5y ago
      >Mac, Linux, iOS and Android all have the same sorts of issues. In Linux you have a choice. dmenu is instant for me. I bet there's a graphical that does what you want, quickly.
      - d110af5ccf 5y ago
        Echoing this. The mainstream compositors all seem to be plenty fast even on very old hardware provided that you have GPU acceleration. Ranger is written in Python of all things and spits out colored text (which has quite a bit of overhead) yet I hardly perceive any latency if I'm running in a decent VTE. In Android I don't recall the various stock AOSP components having any performance issues, just the custom carrier and vendor stuff.
      - boring_twenties 5y ago
        With Linux as of late, once heavy I/O is happening it doesn't matter what program is running because I can't even move the mouse cursor over to click anything.
        spicybright 5y ago
        What kind of hardware are you running where IO effects the mouse that bad?
        boring_twenties 5y ago
        i7-4770k A simple rsync from one hard drive to another is enough to make the system unusable until it completes.
- phkahler 5y ago
  Video games load everything ahead of time and pull user input every frame. Desktop environments tend to be event driven and load stuff as needed. This is a legacy mindset IMHO. Gnome is getting triple buffering in the compositor. Why not just do the compositing every frame as was intended under Wayland? Because reasons.
  - kaba0 5y ago
    Because energy efficiency? I’m sure you don’t want a video game to be constantly running on your device, especially on battery.
    - phkahler 5y ago
      On a phone you're right. Not on the desktop. Compositing isn't that heavy a task, but it does use some energy
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  Rendering a 3D world doesn't require checking for "suggested apps" (aka ads) and/or sending telemetry on every frame so some oxygen wasters can justify their careers. Opening the start menu on Windows 10 does.
greggman3 5y ago
Nothing special about embedded programming that makes it responsive given all the ATMs and gas pumps with atrocious responsiveness
- goatlover 5y ago
  Don’t ATMs tend to run windows? I agree they are sluggish.
- the__alchemist 5y ago
  Hi - this gets into "what is the nature of embedded devices". I'm referring to ones that don't use an OS, and are programmed to do exactly what they need to accomplish, perhaps with real-time requirements.
rikroots 5y ago
> Challenge: Come up with a list of websites that scores above 95 on Google page Speed insights. HN is one. The article linked here is another. Generally, programming-language home pages do well. What about the startup sites under `Show HN`? My open-source project's home page[1] is currently scoring (for me) 98% on the Google Page Speed insights desktop tab[2]. Given that my project is a canvas library and that page is running 4 large/complex canvas demos, I think the Page Speed result says more about Google's test suite than it does about my page. For instance I know that Lighthouse does not include canvas elements when calculating the Largest Contentful Paint metric which my page should, by rights, score poorly on. [1] - https://scrawl-v8.rikweb.org.uk/ https://scrawl-v8.rikweb.org.uk/ [2] - The page consistently scores < 50% on the mobile tab

Retric 5y ago

What I can’t stand is even just operating systems alone aren’t responsive. We can render complex 3D worlds at 120FPS but somehow opening a freaking menu causes noticeable lag.

Tcepsa 5y ago
To be fair to the operating systems out there, GUIs are part of the program, not part of the operating system. If a menu is unresponsive it is far more likely that the writers of the software messed up and put some heavy lifting on their event loop or misused the GUI framework that they choose rather than any fault of the OS. That having been said I do agree that it is disappointing how sluggish some apparently-straightforward applications have gotten despite the hardware performance increases over the years.
- toast0 5y ago
  Most GUI driven OSes at least endorsed a framework/toolkit even if it's not exactly part of the OS. Some of those make it very hard to do things quickly. I don't think you can make a fast Android app using the endorsed toolkit. It simply takes too long for the widget constructors to run.
- Retric 5y ago
  Take a Windows 10 PC that just booted without loading any 3rd party stuff. Wait say 60 seconds to should really be ready, hit the windows key and there is a noticeable delay. I get it not everything needs to be instantaneous, but even basic OS features like browsing files on a local SSD has all kinds of little pauses. Mac, Linux, iOS and Android all have the same sorts of issues.
  - LAC-Tech 5y ago
    >Mac, Linux, iOS and Android all have the same sorts of issues. In Linux you have a choice. dmenu is instant for me. I bet there's a graphical that does what you want, quickly.
    - d110af5ccf 5y ago
      Echoing this. The mainstream compositors all seem to be plenty fast even on very old hardware provided that you have GPU acceleration. Ranger is written in Python of all things and spits out colored text (which has quite a bit of overhead) yet I hardly perceive any latency if I'm running in a decent VTE. In Android I don't recall the various stock AOSP components having any performance issues, just the custom carrier and vendor stuff.
    - boring_twenties 5y ago
      With Linux as of late, once heavy I/O is happening it doesn't matter what program is running because I can't even move the mouse cursor over to click anything.
      - spicybright 5y ago
        What kind of hardware are you running where IO effects the mouse that bad?
        boring_twenties 5y ago
        i7-4770k A simple rsync from one hard drive to another is enough to make the system unusable until it completes.
phkahler 5y ago
Video games load everything ahead of time and pull user input every frame. Desktop environments tend to be event driven and load stuff as needed. This is a legacy mindset IMHO. Gnome is getting triple buffering in the compositor. Why not just do the compositing every frame as was intended under Wayland? Because reasons.
- kaba0 5y ago
  Because energy efficiency? I’m sure you don’t want a video game to be constantly running on your device, especially on battery.
  - phkahler 5y ago
    On a phone you're right. Not on the desktop. Compositing isn't that heavy a task, but it does use some energy
Nextgrid 5y ago
Rendering a 3D world doesn't require checking for "suggested apps" (aka ads) and/or sending telemetry on every frame so some oxygen wasters can justify their careers. Opening the start menu on Windows 10 does.

greggman3 5y ago

Nothing special about embedded programming that makes it responsive given all the ATMs and gas pumps with atrocious responsiveness

goatlover 5y ago
Don’t ATMs tend to run windows? I agree they are sluggish.
the__alchemist 5y ago
Hi - this gets into "what is the nature of embedded devices". I'm referring to ones that don't use an OS, and are programmed to do exactly what they need to accomplish, perhaps with real-time requirements.

rikroots 5y ago

> Challenge: Come up with a list of websites that scores above 95 on Google page Speed insights. HN is one. The article linked here is another. Generally, programming-language home pages do well. What about the startup sites under `Show HN`? My open-source project's home page[1] is currently scoring (for me) 98% on the Google Page Speed insights desktop tab[2]. Given that my project is a canvas library and that page is running 4 large/complex canvas demos, I think the Page Speed result says more about Google's test suite than it does about my page. For instance I know that Lighthouse does not include canvas elements when calculating the Largest Contentful Paint metric which my page should, by rights, score poorly on. [1] - https://scrawl-v8.rikweb.org.uk/ https://scrawl-v8.rikweb.org.uk/ [2] - The page consistently scores < 50% on the mobile tab