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1. Vaccinated people transmit COVID as well. In fact, they're more likely not to show symptoms, so probably more likely to travel and unknowingly infect others.

1. Vaccinated people transmit COVID as well. In fact, they're more likely not to show symptoms, so probably more likely to travel and unknowingly infect others. 2. People have covid over a period of two weeks to a month, and in some portion of that they transmit the disease. Of those that haven't had covid yet, most that will get it, will self isolate. The probability that you are transmitting disease at any moment is very small, and is tiny fraction of one's life. This ban is for years to come, life affecting. More likely to cause poverty and real misery that effects life outcomes much more than COVID. 3. This policy is also vindictive and punitive to people that have had the disease already, who are more protected against COVID than those with vaccine that only recognize the virus by a spike protein. 4. At any moment, anyone could have some transmittable disease that puts your health at risk. We can't make the world safe for everyone at all times. There are inherent risks with being a human, and disease is one of them. Dividing society and isolating people based on a minuscule probability that they are spreading disease is wrong headed. Especially a disease that is curable for 99%+ of people. And who can reduce that risk by getting vaccinated for their own protection. 5. Based on the trends in Israel, (early high vaccination rate)the virus just mutated, and evolved, and is happily reinfecting the vaccinated. This happened in a span of months. The further back someone has been vaccinated the more likely they are to get sick. 6. Anyone with a cold or flue can spread disease as well. By this logic anyone with an STD should be barred from having sex. And if we take it the next step. Bars should be closed down because they facilitate the spread of STDs. Groups more likely to carry STDs should be isolated. This kind of thinking will just lead to more misery than COVID its self. Lockdowns are causing poverty, drug addiction and suicides of young people. Its taking decades off their lives, unlike COVID which mostly is deadly to those in their last year of life.

mthoms 5y ago
>This kind of thinking will just lead to more misery than COVID its self. Lockdowns are causing poverty, drug addiction and suicides of young people. Its taking decades off their lives, unlike COVID which mostly is deadly to those in their last year of life. First of all, none of the above misery is exclusive to young people. None. You seem to think young people are suffering more than most and it's not clear why. I don't want to go through line by line here because I truly feel like you're not thinking this whole thing through. So I have a proposal for how we continue this debate. Let's imagine a scenario: Covid restrictions and vaccines are halted in Canada... What happens next? Do we still treat the sick? If so, what happens when the healthcare system reaches its breaking point? Do we cut back on treating other illnesses? What do you think will happen to our taxes, the national debt, the economy? What will happen to international trade and personal travel? Will Canada be blacklisted? Will being thrown out with the trash by the younger generation be an inevitable part of growing old? What about old people who have devoted their lives to this country (ie. veterans)? And how will ignoring the elderly affect families? How will the millions of Covid deaths affect families? Will there be more misery and depression or less? Will suicides go up or down? Will doctors and scientists just stop caring because we ignored them? Will they stop giving us advice? Will anyone even want to be a doctor (or nurse)? This is a genuine question. I really want to understand what people such as yourself think will happen if we abolished these things. Side note: for the record, yes it is (very) illegal for someone with an STD to have unprotected sex with an unknowing partner in Canada.
- dukeofdoom 5y ago
  Sure, I will try to respond. > Covid restrictions and vaccines are halted in Canada... > What happens next? I am not for halting vaccines. Anyone that wants one should get one. Nothing happens. Those that are at high risk and want a vaccine should get one. > Do we still treat the sick? yes, obviously. This is a medical problem for sure, but its nowhere near overwhelming. We had months to prepare to expend capacity. Keep in mind that in Ontario, at the height of the pandemic, the overall death rate was 7-80 deaths / day. Total Deaths in Ontario: 2019-2020* 115,126 2018-2019 109,019 And the overall death rate is roughly inline with the population growth, which is about 1.7 percent. If official number of COVID deaths is accurate. 9,400 people died of COVID. Assuming those 9,400 deaths were all in the ICU and none at home or palliative care. There are 400 hospitals in the Province. So average of COVID deaths per hospital/per year is 9400/400 = 23.5 > What do you think will happen to our taxes, the national debt, the economy? 23.5 extra deaths/hospital/year. You think will do that? >Will being thrown out with the trash by the younger >generation be an inevitable part of growing old? The average age of a person that dies from COVID is around 85 years old. At that age, you are way past average life expectancy of 82 in Canada. So you did pretty well. You lead a full life before COVID got you. Again not the panic situation you think it is. Also, chances are if COVID did not get you at 85, something else would shortly. >What about old people who have devoted their lives to this >country (ie. veterans)? And how will ignoring the elderly >affect families? How will the millions of Covid deaths >affect families? No one is ignoring the elderly. There are not millions of Covid deaths in Canada. Canada is very well prepared to treat the sick. We have new treatments that work. They can take vaccines to reduce their risk. >Will there be more misery and depression or less? Will >suicides go up or down? Will doctors and scientists just > stop caring because we ignored them? Will they stop > giving us advice? Will anyone even want to be a doctor > ?(or nurse)? Since this seems like a hyperbolic exaggeration. I want you to consider that currently life or death decisions are made at hospitals all the time. We could extend the life of very ill old people right now, if we spent a few extra million per patient. Since hospitals don't have that kind of money. We are letting people die whose life we could prolong with extraordinary measures. Hope you realize that. These decisions are made at hospitals all the time. Give you an example. Dick Cheney is walking around with an artificial heart. Its an operation that would costs millions, but would extend the life of all those very old people that had heart attacks. Why do you think this is not being done? Why do you think hospitals will only offer such procedures to young patients if at all.
dwild 5y ago
> most that will get it, will self isolate Sadly if that was enough we wouldn't be here talking about it. > 3. This policy is also vindictive and punitive to people that have had the disease already They can get vaccinated too. > who are more protected against COVID than those with vaccine Source? > At any moment, anyone could have some transmittable disease that puts your health at risk. Sure, but they don't put as much risk as COVID. If it does, the same steps as covid will be implemented. Quarantine isn't new, it's just rare that so much more is needed. > Dividing society and isolating people based on a minuscule probability On a minuscule probability? If it was minuscule, again, we wouldn't be talking about it right now. The propagation rate are crazy, even considering everything we do to lower it. There's nothing minuscule about it. > Especially a disease that is curable for 99%+ of people. But that put an high strain on our health system for no other reason than the imaginary fear about the vaccine. I always said it. If only 1% were dying, even if I disagree with it that idea, we wouldn't have done any of this, we would just have taken the decision to let them die, even though it so many people. The big issue is the hospitalization rate. There's so many surgeries that have to be postpone, so that we can keep alive anti-vax long enough. > Anyone with a cold or flue can spread disease as well. Yup, at a far lower rate and much less risker of hospitalization than COVID, but yeah. I personally seriously hope that we will treat flu season differently, but people like you make me less hopeful for that to happen. All that said is while still considering that it put much less strain on our health system than COVID. > 5. Based on the trends in Israel, (early high vaccination rate)the virus just mutated, and evolved, and is happily reinfecting the vaccinated. This happened in a span of months. The further back someone has been vaccinated the more likely they are to get sick. If that is true, it's just as much true for the immunity given by getting the virus. I mean you do know that clearly as you said "reinfecting" for someone that got vaccinated... > By this logic anyone with an STD should be barred from having sex. If you lie about your STD to a sex partner, there could definitely be legal repercussion to that. > And if we take it the next step. Bars should be closed down because they facilitate the spread of STDs. Going to a bar doesn't facilitate the spread of STD, there must be much more involved for STD to be propagated. Is it the scale of covid too? Here in Quebec 6% of case require hospitalization. I don't believe that in average someone with an STD give it to up to 8 others.... oh and dying from an STD is much less likely too. > Groups more likely to carry STDs should be isolated. Funny that you say that, I know plenty that can't give blood ;). Even considering they only slightly increase the risk of propagation and it can be tested easily. > Its taking decades off their lives Decades? Come on, sure you were completly ignoring any statistics before that statement, but that's just a whole other level of absurdity. Both world war were horrible, the spanish flu happened during that time, some pretty importants economics crash, plenty of events that clearly increased suicide because of how awful they were (unlike covid, which didn't seems to have an impact) and still the life expectancy just kept increasing. You still think though that this single event will takes off decade of our life? God damn it.

mthoms 5y ago

>This kind of thinking will just lead to more misery than COVID its self. Lockdowns are causing poverty, drug addiction and suicides of young people. Its taking decades off their lives, unlike COVID which mostly is deadly to those in their last year of life. First of all, none of the above misery is exclusive to young people. None. You seem to think young people are suffering more than most and it's not clear why. I don't want to go through line by line here because I truly feel like you're not thinking this whole thing through. So I have a proposal for how we continue this debate. Let's imagine a scenario: Covid restrictions and vaccines are halted in Canada... What happens next? Do we still treat the sick? If so, what happens when the healthcare system reaches its breaking point? Do we cut back on treating other illnesses? What do you think will happen to our taxes, the national debt, the economy? What will happen to international trade and personal travel? Will Canada be blacklisted? Will being thrown out with the trash by the younger generation be an inevitable part of growing old? What about old people who have devoted their lives to this country (ie. veterans)? And how will ignoring the elderly affect families? How will the millions of Covid deaths affect families? Will there be more misery and depression or less? Will suicides go up or down? Will doctors and scientists just stop caring because we ignored them? Will they stop giving us advice? Will anyone even want to be a doctor (or nurse)? This is a genuine question. I really want to understand what people such as yourself think will happen if we abolished these things. Side note: for the record, yes it is (very) illegal for someone with an STD to have unprotected sex with an unknowing partner in Canada.

dukeofdoom 5y ago
Sure, I will try to respond. > Covid restrictions and vaccines are halted in Canada... > What happens next? I am not for halting vaccines. Anyone that wants one should get one. Nothing happens. Those that are at high risk and want a vaccine should get one. > Do we still treat the sick? yes, obviously. This is a medical problem for sure, but its nowhere near overwhelming. We had months to prepare to expend capacity. Keep in mind that in Ontario, at the height of the pandemic, the overall death rate was 7-80 deaths / day. Total Deaths in Ontario: 2019-2020* 115,126 2018-2019 109,019 And the overall death rate is roughly inline with the population growth, which is about 1.7 percent. If official number of COVID deaths is accurate. 9,400 people died of COVID. Assuming those 9,400 deaths were all in the ICU and none at home or palliative care. There are 400 hospitals in the Province. So average of COVID deaths per hospital/per year is 9400/400 = 23.5 > What do you think will happen to our taxes, the national debt, the economy? 23.5 extra deaths/hospital/year. You think will do that? >Will being thrown out with the trash by the younger >generation be an inevitable part of growing old? The average age of a person that dies from COVID is around 85 years old. At that age, you are way past average life expectancy of 82 in Canada. So you did pretty well. You lead a full life before COVID got you. Again not the panic situation you think it is. Also, chances are if COVID did not get you at 85, something else would shortly. >What about old people who have devoted their lives to this >country (ie. veterans)? And how will ignoring the elderly >affect families? How will the millions of Covid deaths >affect families? No one is ignoring the elderly. There are not millions of Covid deaths in Canada. Canada is very well prepared to treat the sick. We have new treatments that work. They can take vaccines to reduce their risk. >Will there be more misery and depression or less? Will >suicides go up or down? Will doctors and scientists just > stop caring because we ignored them? Will they stop > giving us advice? Will anyone even want to be a doctor > ?(or nurse)? Since this seems like a hyperbolic exaggeration. I want you to consider that currently life or death decisions are made at hospitals all the time. We could extend the life of very ill old people right now, if we spent a few extra million per patient. Since hospitals don't have that kind of money. We are letting people die whose life we could prolong with extraordinary measures. Hope you realize that. These decisions are made at hospitals all the time. Give you an example. Dick Cheney is walking around with an artificial heart. Its an operation that would costs millions, but would extend the life of all those very old people that had heart attacks. Why do you think this is not being done? Why do you think hospitals will only offer such procedures to young patients if at all.

dwild 5y ago

> most that will get it, will self isolate Sadly if that was enough we wouldn't be here talking about it. > 3. This policy is also vindictive and punitive to people that have had the disease already They can get vaccinated too. > who are more protected against COVID than those with vaccine Source? > At any moment, anyone could have some transmittable disease that puts your health at risk. Sure, but they don't put as much risk as COVID. If it does, the same steps as covid will be implemented. Quarantine isn't new, it's just rare that so much more is needed. > Dividing society and isolating people based on a minuscule probability On a minuscule probability? If it was minuscule, again, we wouldn't be talking about it right now. The propagation rate are crazy, even considering everything we do to lower it. There's nothing minuscule about it. > Especially a disease that is curable for 99%+ of people. But that put an high strain on our health system for no other reason than the imaginary fear about the vaccine. I always said it. If only 1% were dying, even if I disagree with it that idea, we wouldn't have done any of this, we would just have taken the decision to let them die, even though it so many people. The big issue is the hospitalization rate. There's so many surgeries that have to be postpone, so that we can keep alive anti-vax long enough. > Anyone with a cold or flue can spread disease as well. Yup, at a far lower rate and much less risker of hospitalization than COVID, but yeah. I personally seriously hope that we will treat flu season differently, but people like you make me less hopeful for that to happen. All that said is while still considering that it put much less strain on our health system than COVID. > 5. Based on the trends in Israel, (early high vaccination rate)the virus just mutated, and evolved, and is happily reinfecting the vaccinated. This happened in a span of months. The further back someone has been vaccinated the more likely they are to get sick. If that is true, it's just as much true for the immunity given by getting the virus. I mean you do know that clearly as you said "reinfecting" for someone that got vaccinated... > By this logic anyone with an STD should be barred from having sex. If you lie about your STD to a sex partner, there could definitely be legal repercussion to that. > And if we take it the next step. Bars should be closed down because they facilitate the spread of STDs. Going to a bar doesn't facilitate the spread of STD, there must be much more involved for STD to be propagated. Is it the scale of covid too? Here in Quebec 6% of case require hospitalization. I don't believe that in average someone with an STD give it to up to 8 others.... oh and dying from an STD is much less likely too. > Groups more likely to carry STDs should be isolated. Funny that you say that, I know plenty that can't give blood ;). Even considering they only slightly increase the risk of propagation and it can be tested easily. > Its taking decades off their lives Decades? Come on, sure you were completly ignoring any statistics before that statement, but that's just a whole other level of absurdity. Both world war were horrible, the spanish flu happened during that time, some pretty importants economics crash, plenty of events that clearly increased suicide because of how awful they were (unlike covid, which didn't seems to have an impact) and still the life expectancy just kept increasing. You still think though that this single event will takes off decade of our life? God damn it.