12 ms·

Philippine ethnic group has most Denisovan DNA

211 points by DocFeind 5y ago

ryan_j_naughton 5y ago
The article doesn't mention the percentages, which is disappointing
- jacobsievers 5y ago
  From the article: "Compared with Australians and Papuans, the Negritos’ Denisovan ancestry was up to 46 per cent higher..."
  - Fordec 5y ago
    46 percent higher than what? Do Australians have 0% of total? 50% of total?
    - DoingIsLearning 5y ago
      > Denisovans apparently interbred with modern humans, with about 3–5% of the DNA of Melanesians and Aboriginal Australians and around 7–8% in Papuans deriving from Denisovans. [0] [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denisovan https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denisovan
      - im3w1l 5y ago
        Do they have the same 7-8%? Or one piece of the puzzle each?
  - sandworm101 5y ago
    46% higher, but what total percentage of DNA is Denisovan?
    - pcrh 5y ago
      Just under 4%, figure 3D https://www.cell.com/current-biology/pdf/S0960-9822(21)00977-5.pdf https://www.cell.com/current-biology/pdf/S0960-9822(21)00977...
- codezero 5y ago
  It’s hard to sus an absolute percent but my best guess from some figures is 5% but I could be way way off.
- jhart99 5y ago
  They give confidence intervals in the text for about 51 MB(mega bases) which would be about 2 percent or so if that was across the whole mappable genome. Just a note that does not translate to 2% different genes or something, but rather that specific mutations they know can be traced back to a specific population. Most would have no effect.
- ImaCake 5y ago
  The published academic article seems to estimate an upper bound of about 4%, but I might be interpreting that wrong. It is worth noting that the information is here based on single nucleotide variants which don’t tell us everything about the genome, but a convenient proxy for most of it.
zozbot234 5y ago
This jives in interesting ways with Southeast Asian folklore, which has held since time immemorial that semi-mythical divine beings called "Lemurians" were the true ancestors of modern-day humans, and the bringers of civilization and culture to that part of the world. Could it be that ancient Denisovans were in fact the Lemurians of popular lore?
- frutiger 5y ago
  Wouldn’t it be the other way: Sapiens would be the semi-divine beings bringing civilisation to the local Denisovans?
  - taylorfinley 5y ago
    That framing gets my anti-colonialist emotions stirring. I guess it depends which myth you're more likely to subscribe to, the 'white savior' or the 'noble savage' (please don't mistake this post for advocating those tropes) Edit: Getting downvoted to hell because people are so sensitive and think I'm implying early homo sapiens were light-skinned. That's silly and I probably should have just not posted anything in a conversation like this where everyone is looking to be offended. That said I'm leaving this here for context.
    - inglor_cz 5y ago
      It is well possible that Sapiens were black and Denisovans white.
      - jhgb 5y ago
        It's completely irrelevant since those notions didn't even exist back then.
      - Acrobatic_Road 5y ago
        Given that denisovans evolved in asia, I don't see why they wouldn't have had lighter skin.
    - 5y ago
codezero 5y ago
Interesting tidbits from the paper[0]: Negritos diverged from Papuans 53kya! They estimate the East Asian influx as being only about 2200ya! Wild to imagine what pressures caused those two events. [0] https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(21)00977-5 https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(21)...
- pcrh 5y ago
  From that report it seems that the level of Denisovan DNA in modern Aya Magbukon is just under 4% (fig 3D), if I have understood it correctly. Otherwise they are about 90% Australasian, with 10-15% East Asian (Fig 1D). So there was quite a bit of displacement of Denisovans, with some interbreeding.
  - ummonk 5y ago
    For comparison, if native Americans get assimilated into the US gene pool, they’ll be something like 2% of our genome.
    - Camillo 5y ago
      No, 2% is the percentage of US population that identifies as Native Americans, but it's a highly mixed population. The percentage of actual NA DNA in the US gene pool is certainly much less than 1% at this point.
      - ummonk 5y ago
        Yeah, I could be off with that ballpark figure. Was being generous and assuming that native genes amongst those who don’t identify as native would outweigh non native genes amongst those who do identify as native.
WolfCop 5y ago
Does anyone know of good books or other resources to teach kids (7-10 years old) about the evolution of humans? Things like different homo species, how they are related, evidence that has been found, etc.
- jhart99 5y ago
  I remember a really good issue of national geographic that I read as a kid that talked all about this. Level is a bit higher but they showed how they have found evidence through bones and dated them in different ways and how they reconstructed different parts of the evolution to modern Homo sapiens.
  - selimthegrim 5y ago
    Any idea on the timeframe of publication?
- mistrial9 5y ago
  the stories have really changed in the last ten to twelve years with DNA evidence; so much that one 'recent' book may not be in sync with another
  - cpu_qwerty 5y ago
    In terms of books, I'd say Reich's "Who We Are and How We Got Here" is still the best popular intro available.
- cmrdporcupine 5y ago
  My kids enjoyed this series, which is sort of a mixture of fun and facts about Neanderthals, it's very silly and fun: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/series/LNE/lucy-and-andy-neanderthal https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/series/LNE/lucy-and-andy-... When they were younger, we read the kids this: https://www.amazon.ca/Our-Family-Tree-Evolution-Story/dp/0152017720/ https://www.amazon.ca/Our-Family-Tree-Evolution-Story/dp/015... This is also a good one we have which covers evolution more in depth: https://www.amazon.ca/Evolution-Story-Earth-Jay-Hosler/dp/0809043114/ https://www.amazon.ca/Evolution-Story-Earth-Jay-Hosler/dp/08... There appear to be some others out there now that didn't exist when my kids were younger. This one looks good: https://www.amazon.ca/Sapiens-Graphic-History-Birth-Humankind/dp/0771038747/ https://www.amazon.ca/Sapiens-Graphic-History-Birth-Humankin...
ummonk 5y ago
The notable thing is that there was never a land bridge to the Philippines, so the denisovans would have swum or most likely traveled by canoe to the Philippines.
- throwawaycities 5y ago
  History provides plenty of examples of humans transporting other humans and other species across seas against their will.
  - chronic2703 5y ago
    > History provides plenty of examples of humans transporting other humans and other species across seas against their will. And looking at history, it seems this accelerated the positive development and advancement of the human species.
  - dmoy 5y ago
    Note that larger oceangoing ships were not invented until about 25,000+ years later. Transporting humans against their will is a non-sequitur when considering the mode of transit. It would be canoes, rafts, or swimming. Whether voluntarily or not.
    - newsclues 5y ago
      I’m pretty sure I tied up another kid and transported them to an island as a child at summer camp in the 90s. It’s possible.
    - throwawaycities 5y ago
      As I said there are plenty of examples in history of transporting humans against their will, and yes those historical examples include canoes and rafts. I think it’s much more probable there had to have been complex social relationships between these groups rather than the only possibility being that 1 species of prehumans developed single person boats used to migrate to these islands and then a second species of prehumans independently developed boats that also held a maximum of 1 person and used them to migrate to the same islands already inhabited by the 1 group, and then the 2 groups interbred per the article.
poisonarena 5y ago
maybe thats why they are so nice
chalcolithic 5y ago
What about other extinct human species? Are there similar findings?
- StreamBright 5y ago
  There are few interesting findings recently. https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2021-06-25/unusual-ancient-human-bones-israel/100238152 https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2021-06-25/unusual-ancie...
diego_moita 5y ago
For those interested in genetic analysis of human evolution I highly recommend David Reich - Who We Are and How We Got Here. It is really a fantastic book.
- 08-15 5y ago
  For those who think David Reich is a scientist, I recommend "Genetic evidence for complex speciation of humans and chimpanzees", John Wakeley's reply "Complex speciation of humans and chimpanzees" and "Patterson et al. reply" to Wakeley's reply. (All published in Nature in 2006, 2008, 2008, respectively.) It's a fantastic demonstration of modern science at work.
  - martinpw 5y ago
    > For those who think David Reich is a scientist What does this mean? I didn't know who David Reich is, but I take your comment to imply there is something controversial about him? A quick search doesn't indicate anything though. Would appreciate some clarification.
    - 08-15 5y ago
      It means, I think he's incompetent and the stories he tells about our genetic makeup are, well, just stories, and not based in science. Considering the topic at hand, you should know who David Reich is. He (co-) wrote every single paper on Neanderthal and Denisovan genetics.
jmpman 5y ago
My buddy’s grandparents are from that group. Someone’s getting some old Geico commercial YouTube links.
ilamont 5y ago
There's an interesting connection to Taiwan, which also ties into early migration to more distant parts of Southeast Asia and Australia: Our current understanding is that after humans migrated out of Africa, they flowed down through South East Asia, hopping across narrow straights and between islands. From Timor, they used rudimentary rafts or dugout canoes to cross to Papua New Guinea, then headed down the scythed curve of the Bismarck Archipelago, and reached the far edge of the Solomon Islands by around 40,000 years ago. There, nothing but the open ocean lay ahead of them, and so these people – the Near Oceanians – stopped, and Remote Oceania remained uninhabited. Then some 5,000 years ago, a group of humans from what is now Taiwan left their home shores and journeyed south through the Philippines and Indonesia into Near Oceania. Called Austronesians, they brought with them sophisticated maritime technology and seafaring skills. They mixed with populations of the Near Oceanians, forging a new people – the Lapita – who then struck out to populate the rest of the Pacific. ... “Our analyses suggest that humans left Taiwan more than 5,000 years ago, and that admixture between the Austronesian incomers and the populations of Near Oceania started only 2,000 years later,” Patin says. “The expansions from Taiwan therefore took some time, and may have involved a maturation phase in the Philippines or Indonesia.” https://cosmosmagazine.com/history/palaeontology/denisovan-dna-may-have-aided-pacific-migration/ https://cosmosmagazine.com/history/palaeontology/denisovan-d...
- Abishek_Muthian 5y ago
  Some of them could have even sailed in the opposite direction to Oceania, There are still indigenous people living in complete isolation on islands like Sentinelese[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentinelese https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentinelese
  - valarauko 5y ago
    The Austronesians that spread out of Taiwan did also circle back westwards, reaching as far as Madagascar. The Sentinelese, however, are unlikely to be related to the Austronesian expansion. We have no genetic samples from the Sentinelese so we can't be sure, but are most likely closely related to the other Andamanese groups, like the Onge. The Andamanese are the remnants of a much older expansion, perhaps 50K years prior, compared to the 5K of the Austronesians. The Andamanese are distant relations of the AASI ancestors of modern South Asians, and more distantly of the Australian Aborigines. Contrast with the Nicobarese, who are an austroasiatic people, related to the Munda and Khasi of the mainland. The austroasiatic family is potentially a distant relation of the Austronesian family, so there that.
silisili 5y ago
I find this super interesting. Any resources to read more? In all my travels, Philippines stands out as having the most unique people. I could write a novel on it, but in the name of not sounding racist, won't. It's not bad things, or good things, just different things. I'd love to know more about their history.
- CyanBird 5y ago
  > but in the name of not sounding racist, won't Just say that it comes from an ethnographic perspective and do it
  - axaxs 5y ago
    For some reason, pointing out differences in people triggers some racist warning. I think it's absolutely fascinating. I'll list just a few. To list a few examples from the Philippines...they point with their lips, small people with unusually big feet, which probably lends to climbing trees. I noticed this riding transport, as everyone wears flip flops. I wear a 13 US, and I borrowed shoes that fit from a 5'7 man. I saw people climb a vertical tree like a ladder. Please don't take this as some insult, I'm jealous. They generally have small noses and recognize people by noses. I've never had so many people comment on my nose in my life. Half were in awe, half were insulting. But it varies so much. In Manila you see a lot of lighter, almost hispanic looking people. In the villages, you see darker and wilder looking people. I remember a bad storm in the villages, and a lady sitting rocking holding her legs and something just seemed so primal in the reaction and look on her face. I'll -never- forget how they cry, it's so different than Americans. Haunting really. Probably the most stark thing I noticed though was how easy they sleep. You could get on a hot, crowded, bumpy bus and everyone is sleeping as if they're on a mattress. My wife and daughter are from the region, and are usually sleeping by the time I leave the neighborhood in my vehicle, which makes me think there's something there. They are the friendliest, and by far the most spry people. I remember waking up hearing the hotel lady's flip flops clanking as she ran between rooms. Everyone ran everywhere, it's so much faster and more efficient than how us overweight Americans waddle around. Jealous, again.
rupertwilson 5y ago
Just wanted to contribute the following observations as I have some experience interacting with "Negrito" people. “Although, much later, Negritos admixed with the East Asian group that had a small proportion of Denisova DNA, we found that the Negritos had a proportion markedly higher than those of other ethnic groups. Compared with Australians and Papuans, the Negritos’ Denisovan ancestry was up to 46 per cent higher,” I have worked in several South East Asian countries. Vietnam, Thailand, Indonesia, Phillipines, Malaysia, Timor, and Papua during which I was volunteering with a conservation organization. It was during these trips that I encountered "Negrito" people and was shocked to discover what was actively being done to them and how little of their history, knowledge, language, culture is being documented and preserved or even mentioned in our media. Each of these South East Asian countries used to have a much more significant indigenous "Negrito"/High Denisovan population. Some still do. But they're rapidly declining, to the point that it is below the threshold of recoverability. It pains me to say this, but this is in many cases due to the East Asian group's active policies. In Thailand, they still exist to this day albeit their population is down to the hundreds and rapidly declining. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maniq_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maniq_people " The Maniq or Mani are an ethnic group of Thailand. They are more widely known in Thailand as the Sakai (Thai: ซาไก), a controversial derogatory term meaning 'slave' " Similarly, in Malaysia they are down to below a thousand. I have met a few of them in "Reservation Forest" where an Islamic state government was, in my opinion, performing a slow 'sous vide' genocide using destruction of their ecosystem (logging, palm oil, durian) and enforcement of 'residential schools' (much like what was done in Canada and the US, it may even have been modeled after those strategies). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orang_Asli https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orang_Asli " The development of the slave trade in the region was a powerful factor influencing the fate of the Orang Asli. Based on historical records, the enslavement of Negrito tribes commenced as early as 724 AD, during the early contact of the Malay Srivijaya empire. Negrito pygmies from the southern jungles were enslaved, with some being exploited until modern times.[30] Muslims, according to the laws of Islam, could not be slaves.[31] Therefore, the efforts of slave hunters were focused on the Orang Asli. It was at this time that the Malay people began to use the derogatory term sakai, meaning "slaves". They were treated as wild animals. Aceh Sultanate, located in the north of the island of Sumatra, in the early 16th century equipped special expeditions to capture slaves in the Malay Peninsula, and Malacca was at that time the largest center of the slave trade in the region. Raids on slaves in the villages of Orang Asli were common in the 18th and 19th centuries. During this time, Orang Asli groups suffered raids by the Malay and Batak forces who perceived them to be of lower in status. Orang Asli settlements were sacked, with adult males being systematically executed while women and children being held captive and later sold as slaves. " In Indonesia, the situation is far worse with an active genocide happening right now in the West Papua province. Although I would not term the Papuan people as "Negrito", they no doubt, have much more in common with the "Negrito" than with the Javanese soldiers (East Asian group) they are at war with. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5S5dNmSNR4g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5S5dNmSNR4g I have to stop here because it is too upsetting for me to continue. I just wanted to contribute that it is great to discover that they have the highest proportion of Denisovan DNA because perhaps now their plight may get the attention of the broader world.
DanielKehoe 5y ago
The AFP (the government's Armed Forces of the Philippines) clashes with the NPA (New People's Army) among rural and marginalized peoples including the Aetas. "They plant taro, rice, and corn for a living. They cannot read or write. The government accuses them of being terrorists." https://www.rappler.com/newsbreak/in-depth/distraught-aetas-caught-war-anti-terrorism-law https://www.rappler.com/newsbreak/in-depth/distraught-aetas-...
hbarka 5y ago
Here’s a popular YouTuber who visited a Negrito tribal community in the Philippines. Note that his interests are in discovering the African racial diaspora. I’m not sure how scientifically significant the association is based solely on supposedly similar features but the video is worth watching https://youtu.be/n_ghkgZSEOI https://youtu.be/n_ghkgZSEOI
ZeroGravitas 5y ago
Is there a good overview of what this means starting with the basics and based on up to date theory and evidence? I don't really understand how you can have multiple species that interbreed and then some go "extinct" but then we find "extinct" DNA in living ancestors. Seems like a paradox. Kind of like if I said "All swans are white" then got excited about finding a black swan. But in that case it's only actually surprising to find a black swan because I'd made a wrong assumption based on limited evidence. Is that the case for these "extinct" human species? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interbreeding_between_archaic_and_modern_humans https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interbreeding_between_archai... > Although the narratives of human evolution are often contentious, DNA evidence shows that human evolution should not be seen as a simple linear or branched progression, but a mix of related species. In fact, genomic research has shown that hybridization between substantially diverged lineages is the rule, not the exception, in human evolution.[6] Furthermore, it is argued that hybridization was an essential driving force in the emergence of modern humans.[6] Seems to be hinting that the branching tree diagrams are misleadingly simplified. edit: found this, which suggests that most of the fuss is about trying to draw firm lines in between fuzzy degrees of difference, though the author would still think of then as seperate species, and thinks it's the definition of species that needs work. https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/are-neanderthals-same-species-as-us.html https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/are-neanderthals-same-species...
- greazy 5y ago
  Phylogenetics is the study of evolutionary relationships between organisms. A good summary to human evolution is the wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolutionary_genetics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolutionary_genetics > I don't really understand how you can have multiple species that interbreed and then some go "extinct" but then we find "extinct" DNA in living ancestors. We have sequenced and reconstructed some of the Denisovan DNA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_DNA#Human_aDNA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_DNA#Human_aDNA This helps a lot, when combined with modern humans, and allows us to reconstruct our evolutionary relationship(s).

211 points by DocFeind 5y ago

ryan_j_naughton 5y ago

The article doesn't mention the percentages, which is disappointing

jacobsievers 5y ago
From the article: "Compared with Australians and Papuans, the Negritos’ Denisovan ancestry was up to 46 per cent higher..."
- Fordec 5y ago
  46 percent higher than what? Do Australians have 0% of total? 50% of total?
  - DoingIsLearning 5y ago
    > Denisovans apparently interbred with modern humans, with about 3–5% of the DNA of Melanesians and Aboriginal Australians and around 7–8% in Papuans deriving from Denisovans. [0] [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denisovan https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denisovan
    - im3w1l 5y ago
      Do they have the same 7-8%? Or one piece of the puzzle each?
- sandworm101 5y ago
  46% higher, but what total percentage of DNA is Denisovan?
  - pcrh 5y ago
    Just under 4%, figure 3D https://www.cell.com/current-biology/pdf/S0960-9822(21)00977-5.pdf https://www.cell.com/current-biology/pdf/S0960-9822(21)00977...
codezero 5y ago
It’s hard to sus an absolute percent but my best guess from some figures is 5% but I could be way way off.
jhart99 5y ago
They give confidence intervals in the text for about 51 MB(mega bases) which would be about 2 percent or so if that was across the whole mappable genome. Just a note that does not translate to 2% different genes or something, but rather that specific mutations they know can be traced back to a specific population. Most would have no effect.
ImaCake 5y ago
The published academic article seems to estimate an upper bound of about 4%, but I might be interpreting that wrong. It is worth noting that the information is here based on single nucleotide variants which don’t tell us everything about the genome, but a convenient proxy for most of it.

zozbot234 5y ago

This jives in interesting ways with Southeast Asian folklore, which has held since time immemorial that semi-mythical divine beings called "Lemurians" were the true ancestors of modern-day humans, and the bringers of civilization and culture to that part of the world. Could it be that ancient Denisovans were in fact the Lemurians of popular lore?

frutiger 5y ago
Wouldn’t it be the other way: Sapiens would be the semi-divine beings bringing civilisation to the local Denisovans?
- taylorfinley 5y ago
  That framing gets my anti-colonialist emotions stirring. I guess it depends which myth you're more likely to subscribe to, the 'white savior' or the 'noble savage' (please don't mistake this post for advocating those tropes) Edit: Getting downvoted to hell because people are so sensitive and think I'm implying early homo sapiens were light-skinned. That's silly and I probably should have just not posted anything in a conversation like this where everyone is looking to be offended. That said I'm leaving this here for context.
  - inglor_cz 5y ago
    It is well possible that Sapiens were black and Denisovans white.
    - jhgb 5y ago
      It's completely irrelevant since those notions didn't even exist back then.
    - Acrobatic_Road 5y ago
      Given that denisovans evolved in asia, I don't see why they wouldn't have had lighter skin.
  - 5y ago

codezero 5y ago

Interesting tidbits from the paper[0]: Negritos diverged from Papuans 53kya! They estimate the East Asian influx as being only about 2200ya! Wild to imagine what pressures caused those two events. [0] https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(21)00977-5 https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(21)...

pcrh 5y ago
From that report it seems that the level of Denisovan DNA in modern Aya Magbukon is just under 4% (fig 3D), if I have understood it correctly. Otherwise they are about 90% Australasian, with 10-15% East Asian (Fig 1D). So there was quite a bit of displacement of Denisovans, with some interbreeding.
- ummonk 5y ago
  For comparison, if native Americans get assimilated into the US gene pool, they’ll be something like 2% of our genome.
  - Camillo 5y ago
    No, 2% is the percentage of US population that identifies as Native Americans, but it's a highly mixed population. The percentage of actual NA DNA in the US gene pool is certainly much less than 1% at this point.
    - ummonk 5y ago
      Yeah, I could be off with that ballpark figure. Was being generous and assuming that native genes amongst those who don’t identify as native would outweigh non native genes amongst those who do identify as native.

WolfCop 5y ago

Does anyone know of good books or other resources to teach kids (7-10 years old) about the evolution of humans? Things like different homo species, how they are related, evidence that has been found, etc.

jhart99 5y ago
I remember a really good issue of national geographic that I read as a kid that talked all about this. Level is a bit higher but they showed how they have found evidence through bones and dated them in different ways and how they reconstructed different parts of the evolution to modern Homo sapiens.
- selimthegrim 5y ago
  Any idea on the timeframe of publication?
mistrial9 5y ago
the stories have really changed in the last ten to twelve years with DNA evidence; so much that one 'recent' book may not be in sync with another
- cpu_qwerty 5y ago
  In terms of books, I'd say Reich's "Who We Are and How We Got Here" is still the best popular intro available.
cmrdporcupine 5y ago
My kids enjoyed this series, which is sort of a mixture of fun and facts about Neanderthals, it's very silly and fun: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/series/LNE/lucy-and-andy-neanderthal https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/series/LNE/lucy-and-andy-... When they were younger, we read the kids this: https://www.amazon.ca/Our-Family-Tree-Evolution-Story/dp/0152017720/ https://www.amazon.ca/Our-Family-Tree-Evolution-Story/dp/015... This is also a good one we have which covers evolution more in depth: https://www.amazon.ca/Evolution-Story-Earth-Jay-Hosler/dp/0809043114/ https://www.amazon.ca/Evolution-Story-Earth-Jay-Hosler/dp/08... There appear to be some others out there now that didn't exist when my kids were younger. This one looks good: https://www.amazon.ca/Sapiens-Graphic-History-Birth-Humankind/dp/0771038747/ https://www.amazon.ca/Sapiens-Graphic-History-Birth-Humankin...

ummonk 5y ago

The notable thing is that there was never a land bridge to the Philippines, so the denisovans would have swum or most likely traveled by canoe to the Philippines.

throwawaycities 5y ago
History provides plenty of examples of humans transporting other humans and other species across seas against their will.
- chronic2703 5y ago
  > History provides plenty of examples of humans transporting other humans and other species across seas against their will. And looking at history, it seems this accelerated the positive development and advancement of the human species.
- dmoy 5y ago
  Note that larger oceangoing ships were not invented until about 25,000+ years later. Transporting humans against their will is a non-sequitur when considering the mode of transit. It would be canoes, rafts, or swimming. Whether voluntarily or not.
  - newsclues 5y ago
    I’m pretty sure I tied up another kid and transported them to an island as a child at summer camp in the 90s. It’s possible.
  - throwawaycities 5y ago
    As I said there are plenty of examples in history of transporting humans against their will, and yes those historical examples include canoes and rafts. I think it’s much more probable there had to have been complex social relationships between these groups rather than the only possibility being that 1 species of prehumans developed single person boats used to migrate to these islands and then a second species of prehumans independently developed boats that also held a maximum of 1 person and used them to migrate to the same islands already inhabited by the 1 group, and then the 2 groups interbred per the article.

poisonarena 5y ago

maybe thats why they are so nice

chalcolithic 5y ago

What about other extinct human species? Are there similar findings?

StreamBright 5y ago
There are few interesting findings recently. https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2021-06-25/unusual-ancient-human-bones-israel/100238152 https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2021-06-25/unusual-ancie...

diego_moita 5y ago

For those interested in genetic analysis of human evolution I highly recommend David Reich - Who We Are and How We Got Here. It is really a fantastic book.

08-15 5y ago
For those who think David Reich is a scientist, I recommend "Genetic evidence for complex speciation of humans and chimpanzees", John Wakeley's reply "Complex speciation of humans and chimpanzees" and "Patterson et al. reply" to Wakeley's reply. (All published in Nature in 2006, 2008, 2008, respectively.) It's a fantastic demonstration of modern science at work.
- martinpw 5y ago
  > For those who think David Reich is a scientist What does this mean? I didn't know who David Reich is, but I take your comment to imply there is something controversial about him? A quick search doesn't indicate anything though. Would appreciate some clarification.
  - 08-15 5y ago
    It means, I think he's incompetent and the stories he tells about our genetic makeup are, well, just stories, and not based in science. Considering the topic at hand, you should know who David Reich is. He (co-) wrote every single paper on Neanderthal and Denisovan genetics.

jmpman 5y ago

My buddy’s grandparents are from that group. Someone’s getting some old Geico commercial YouTube links.

ilamont 5y ago

There's an interesting connection to Taiwan, which also ties into early migration to more distant parts of Southeast Asia and Australia: Our current understanding is that after humans migrated out of Africa, they flowed down through South East Asia, hopping across narrow straights and between islands. From Timor, they used rudimentary rafts or dugout canoes to cross to Papua New Guinea, then headed down the scythed curve of the Bismarck Archipelago, and reached the far edge of the Solomon Islands by around 40,000 years ago. There, nothing but the open ocean lay ahead of them, and so these people – the Near Oceanians – stopped, and Remote Oceania remained uninhabited. Then some 5,000 years ago, a group of humans from what is now Taiwan left their home shores and journeyed south through the Philippines and Indonesia into Near Oceania. Called Austronesians, they brought with them sophisticated maritime technology and seafaring skills. They mixed with populations of the Near Oceanians, forging a new people – the Lapita – who then struck out to populate the rest of the Pacific. ... “Our analyses suggest that humans left Taiwan more than 5,000 years ago, and that admixture between the Austronesian incomers and the populations of Near Oceania started only 2,000 years later,” Patin says. “The expansions from Taiwan therefore took some time, and may have involved a maturation phase in the Philippines or Indonesia.” https://cosmosmagazine.com/history/palaeontology/denisovan-dna-may-have-aided-pacific-migration/ https://cosmosmagazine.com/history/palaeontology/denisovan-d...

Abishek_Muthian 5y ago
Some of them could have even sailed in the opposite direction to Oceania, There are still indigenous people living in complete isolation on islands like Sentinelese[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentinelese https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentinelese
- valarauko 5y ago
  The Austronesians that spread out of Taiwan did also circle back westwards, reaching as far as Madagascar. The Sentinelese, however, are unlikely to be related to the Austronesian expansion. We have no genetic samples from the Sentinelese so we can't be sure, but are most likely closely related to the other Andamanese groups, like the Onge. The Andamanese are the remnants of a much older expansion, perhaps 50K years prior, compared to the 5K of the Austronesians. The Andamanese are distant relations of the AASI ancestors of modern South Asians, and more distantly of the Australian Aborigines. Contrast with the Nicobarese, who are an austroasiatic people, related to the Munda and Khasi of the mainland. The austroasiatic family is potentially a distant relation of the Austronesian family, so there that.

silisili 5y ago

I find this super interesting. Any resources to read more? In all my travels, Philippines stands out as having the most unique people. I could write a novel on it, but in the name of not sounding racist, won't. It's not bad things, or good things, just different things. I'd love to know more about their history.

CyanBird 5y ago
> but in the name of not sounding racist, won't Just say that it comes from an ethnographic perspective and do it
- axaxs 5y ago
  For some reason, pointing out differences in people triggers some racist warning. I think it's absolutely fascinating. I'll list just a few. To list a few examples from the Philippines...they point with their lips, small people with unusually big feet, which probably lends to climbing trees. I noticed this riding transport, as everyone wears flip flops. I wear a 13 US, and I borrowed shoes that fit from a 5'7 man. I saw people climb a vertical tree like a ladder. Please don't take this as some insult, I'm jealous. They generally have small noses and recognize people by noses. I've never had so many people comment on my nose in my life. Half were in awe, half were insulting. But it varies so much. In Manila you see a lot of lighter, almost hispanic looking people. In the villages, you see darker and wilder looking people. I remember a bad storm in the villages, and a lady sitting rocking holding her legs and something just seemed so primal in the reaction and look on her face. I'll -never- forget how they cry, it's so different than Americans. Haunting really. Probably the most stark thing I noticed though was how easy they sleep. You could get on a hot, crowded, bumpy bus and everyone is sleeping as if they're on a mattress. My wife and daughter are from the region, and are usually sleeping by the time I leave the neighborhood in my vehicle, which makes me think there's something there. They are the friendliest, and by far the most spry people. I remember waking up hearing the hotel lady's flip flops clanking as she ran between rooms. Everyone ran everywhere, it's so much faster and more efficient than how us overweight Americans waddle around. Jealous, again.

rupertwilson 5y ago

Just wanted to contribute the following observations as I have some experience interacting with "Negrito" people. “Although, much later, Negritos admixed with the East Asian group that had a small proportion of Denisova DNA, we found that the Negritos had a proportion markedly higher than those of other ethnic groups. Compared with Australians and Papuans, the Negritos’ Denisovan ancestry was up to 46 per cent higher,” I have worked in several South East Asian countries. Vietnam, Thailand, Indonesia, Phillipines, Malaysia, Timor, and Papua during which I was volunteering with a conservation organization. It was during these trips that I encountered "Negrito" people and was shocked to discover what was actively being done to them and how little of their history, knowledge, language, culture is being documented and preserved or even mentioned in our media. Each of these South East Asian countries used to have a much more significant indigenous "Negrito"/High Denisovan population. Some still do. But they're rapidly declining, to the point that it is below the threshold of recoverability. It pains me to say this, but this is in many cases due to the East Asian group's active policies. In Thailand, they still exist to this day albeit their population is down to the hundreds and rapidly declining. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maniq_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maniq_people " The Maniq or Mani are an ethnic group of Thailand. They are more widely known in Thailand as the Sakai (Thai: ซาไก), a controversial derogatory term meaning 'slave' " Similarly, in Malaysia they are down to below a thousand. I have met a few of them in "Reservation Forest" where an Islamic state government was, in my opinion, performing a slow 'sous vide' genocide using destruction of their ecosystem (logging, palm oil, durian) and enforcement of 'residential schools' (much like what was done in Canada and the US, it may even have been modeled after those strategies). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orang_Asli https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orang_Asli " The development of the slave trade in the region was a powerful factor influencing the fate of the Orang Asli. Based on historical records, the enslavement of Negrito tribes commenced as early as 724 AD, during the early contact of the Malay Srivijaya empire. Negrito pygmies from the southern jungles were enslaved, with some being exploited until modern times.[30] Muslims, according to the laws of Islam, could not be slaves.[31] Therefore, the efforts of slave hunters were focused on the Orang Asli. It was at this time that the Malay people began to use the derogatory term sakai, meaning "slaves". They were treated as wild animals. Aceh Sultanate, located in the north of the island of Sumatra, in the early 16th century equipped special expeditions to capture slaves in the Malay Peninsula, and Malacca was at that time the largest center of the slave trade in the region. Raids on slaves in the villages of Orang Asli were common in the 18th and 19th centuries. During this time, Orang Asli groups suffered raids by the Malay and Batak forces who perceived them to be of lower in status. Orang Asli settlements were sacked, with adult males being systematically executed while women and children being held captive and later sold as slaves. " In Indonesia, the situation is far worse with an active genocide happening right now in the West Papua province. Although I would not term the Papuan people as "Negrito", they no doubt, have much more in common with the "Negrito" than with the Javanese soldiers (East Asian group) they are at war with. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5S5dNmSNR4g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5S5dNmSNR4g I have to stop here because it is too upsetting for me to continue. I just wanted to contribute that it is great to discover that they have the highest proportion of Denisovan DNA because perhaps now their plight may get the attention of the broader world.

DanielKehoe 5y ago

The AFP (the government's Armed Forces of the Philippines) clashes with the NPA (New People's Army) among rural and marginalized peoples including the Aetas. "They plant taro, rice, and corn for a living. They cannot read or write. The government accuses them of being terrorists." https://www.rappler.com/newsbreak/in-depth/distraught-aetas-caught-war-anti-terrorism-law https://www.rappler.com/newsbreak/in-depth/distraught-aetas-...

hbarka 5y ago

Here’s a popular YouTuber who visited a Negrito tribal community in the Philippines. Note that his interests are in discovering the African racial diaspora. I’m not sure how scientifically significant the association is based solely on supposedly similar features but the video is worth watching https://youtu.be/n_ghkgZSEOI https://youtu.be/n_ghkgZSEOI

ZeroGravitas 5y ago

Is there a good overview of what this means starting with the basics and based on up to date theory and evidence? I don't really understand how you can have multiple species that interbreed and then some go "extinct" but then we find "extinct" DNA in living ancestors. Seems like a paradox. Kind of like if I said "All swans are white" then got excited about finding a black swan. But in that case it's only actually surprising to find a black swan because I'd made a wrong assumption based on limited evidence. Is that the case for these "extinct" human species? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interbreeding_between_archaic_and_modern_humans https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interbreeding_between_archai... > Although the narratives of human evolution are often contentious, DNA evidence shows that human evolution should not be seen as a simple linear or branched progression, but a mix of related species. In fact, genomic research has shown that hybridization between substantially diverged lineages is the rule, not the exception, in human evolution.[6] Furthermore, it is argued that hybridization was an essential driving force in the emergence of modern humans.[6] Seems to be hinting that the branching tree diagrams are misleadingly simplified. edit: found this, which suggests that most of the fuss is about trying to draw firm lines in between fuzzy degrees of difference, though the author would still think of then as seperate species, and thinks it's the definition of species that needs work. https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/are-neanderthals-same-species-as-us.html https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/are-neanderthals-same-species...

greazy 5y ago
Phylogenetics is the study of evolutionary relationships between organisms. A good summary to human evolution is the wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolutionary_genetics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolutionary_genetics > I don't really understand how you can have multiple species that interbreed and then some go "extinct" but then we find "extinct" DNA in living ancestors. We have sequenced and reconstructed some of the Denisovan DNA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_DNA#Human_aDNA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_DNA#Human_aDNA This helps a lot, when combined with modern humans, and allows us to reconstruct our evolutionary relationship(s).