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We don’t have this data, because this is such an outrageous experiment, who would have thought to mask children for hour son end before 2020? I’d wager that no

We don’t have this data, because this is such an outrageous experiment, who would have thought to mask children for hour son end before 2020? I’d wager that no IRB board would have accepted such an experimental setup anyway. But we really should have the data before engaging in real-world experimentation on children. The closest we have is some data in macaques. https://massivesci.com/articles/facial-recognition-patches-brain-macaque/ https://massivesci.com/articles/facial-recognition-patches-b...

jasonlaramburu 5y ago
Many schools around the world have mandated masks for over a year. Show me one that has observed negative impacts on child development. My point is that folks on one side of the debate routinely accuse the other of making decisions based on ‘fear’ and not data, but then are guilty of the exact same thing when it supports their position.
- herewegoagain12 5y ago
  It’s intuitively obvious that humans are social creatures after millions of years of evolution. There’s boatloads of knowledge around child development and how crucial it is to see facial expressions. You know, the stuff around mirror neurons, etc. But outside that common sense based in very well-understood science, there is evidence that the disruption to normal life is dropping childrens’ IQs substantially. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/12/children-born-during-pandemic-have-lower-iqs-us-study-finds https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/12/children-born-...
  - jasonlaramburu 5y ago
    > There’s boatloads of knowledge around child development and how crucial it is to see facial expressions Care to share some of this boatload of data for school-age (5+) kids? > there is evidence that the disruption to normal life is dropping childrens’ IQs substantially. This we can agree on. Your article specifically refers to the closing of schools (not masks). Closed schools and full PICUs are about as disruptive to a child’s daily life as you can get. This is already happening in Georgia and Texas and will only get worse if we don’t take evidence-based steps to control the spread of disease.
    - herewegoagain12 5y ago
      Right off the bat, humans are social creatures and cutting off social activity is the cruelest form of punishment, as evidenced by prisons. An unobstructed face communicates a rich set of subtle queues and non-verbal emotions, and it’s indispensable to socializing. If you need evidence, I don’t know what to say to you other than this is self-evident to any human experiencing life among other people. If you think I’m just making this up: https://theconversation.com/face-time-heres-how-infants-learn-from-facial-expressions-53327 https://theconversation.com/face-time-heres-how-infants-lear... But further: why is the null hypothesis here that prolonged, universal masks wouldn’t disrupt child development? Is it unreasonable to assume that a multiple-year long regime of obscuring the primary mode of human identity and emotion would upset such a complex system like the development and socialization of a human being? Since when has it become normal to fiddle with major components of a complex system like society and make the burden of evidence: prove there’s harm. Humans generally screw things up in completely unexpected ways, overconfident in their own agency and supposed knowledge. This is hubris.
toss1 5y ago
Among your multiple obvious trolling against proven anti-COVID-19 measures, this may be the most preposterous suggestion. Perhaps there is some data on how harmful halloween masks are to kids. Or on pubescent Muslim girls/teens... (/sarc) You are assuming the existence of some implausible 2nd or 3rd order harm (masks harm kids and they are so un-adaptable that it couldn't possibly be mitigated), and then claiming lack of data from another implausible obstacle (that this supposed harm is so obviously bad that no ethics board would allow it to be studied) all as a pretext to avoid a proven-effective measure to prevent a first order, and often deadly harm. The burden would be on you to show actual harm from wearing a mask when thousands do it without harm all day every day (for work and for disease prevention) Also it is not just about the kids whom you wrongly assume to be invulnerable - it is about not making another petri dish to both further spread the disease to those whom the kids come in contact. I watched as the infection rates tracked in Britain, Quebec, Israel, etc. all rose with schools going into session, and fell in school breaks. Public health measures are not about you. Its about everyone taking on just a bit of responsibility to contain a deadly pandemic, and not freeloading on what collective immunity is provided by the more conscientious and intelligent around you.
- CryptoPunk 5y ago
  I am not trolling against these unnecessary anti-covid measures by providing 1. statistical evidence that shows the fear of covid in children is disproportionate to the risk covid poses to children, 2. logical arguments for why mask-wearing should not be mandated for children. Calling it trolling is exactly the kind of intolerant hostility that prevents a debate on the issue and puts society on autopilot to never-ending restrictive measures that are wildly disproportionate to the danger posed to children. >>Perhaps there is some data on how harmful halloween masks are to kids. Or on pubescent Muslim girls/teens... (/sarc) We don't wear halloween masks for most of every day, every day for months on end. The vast majority of Muslim girls who wear hijab don't wear a niqab that covers the face. This a bad faith effort to find comparable situations. Facial expressions are extremely important for communication. Forcing children to largely make do without them could very plausibly - I would say highly probably - harm their social development. This is not far-out speculation, and your smug dismissal of it is reckless and irresponsible. >>The burden would be on you to show actual harm from wearing a mask when thousands do it without harm all day every day (for work and for disease prevention) We have never had children wear masks for much of every day for months on end. Even medical professionals - who are adults and have already had normal childhoods without their faces being covered - don't wear masks all day at work on a regular basis. Masks are only worn in specific situations that don't encompass most of their work hours, like time in surgery. >>Also it is not just about the kids whom you wrongly assume to be invulnerable The evidence shows they are no more vulnerable to covid than to the flu. Masking the entire population of children is not a proportionate response to the risk covid poses to them. >>it is about not making another petri dish to both further spread the disease to those whom the kids come in contact. Children should not be burdened with daily masking to protect adults, and in any case, children are not known to be a high-risk transmission vector: https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/147/4/e2020048090 https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/147/4/e202004... The disappointing thing is that your responses to my arguments have been very weak - like comparing daily mask wearing to once a year Halloween mask wearing - showing you actually don't want to have a good faith debate on this issue.

jasonlaramburu 5y ago

Many schools around the world have mandated masks for over a year. Show me one that has observed negative impacts on child development. My point is that folks on one side of the debate routinely accuse the other of making decisions based on ‘fear’ and not data, but then are guilty of the exact same thing when it supports their position.

herewegoagain12 5y ago
It’s intuitively obvious that humans are social creatures after millions of years of evolution. There’s boatloads of knowledge around child development and how crucial it is to see facial expressions. You know, the stuff around mirror neurons, etc. But outside that common sense based in very well-understood science, there is evidence that the disruption to normal life is dropping childrens’ IQs substantially. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/12/children-born-during-pandemic-have-lower-iqs-us-study-finds https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/12/children-born-...
- jasonlaramburu 5y ago
  > There’s boatloads of knowledge around child development and how crucial it is to see facial expressions Care to share some of this boatload of data for school-age (5+) kids? > there is evidence that the disruption to normal life is dropping childrens’ IQs substantially. This we can agree on. Your article specifically refers to the closing of schools (not masks). Closed schools and full PICUs are about as disruptive to a child’s daily life as you can get. This is already happening in Georgia and Texas and will only get worse if we don’t take evidence-based steps to control the spread of disease.
  - herewegoagain12 5y ago
    Right off the bat, humans are social creatures and cutting off social activity is the cruelest form of punishment, as evidenced by prisons. An unobstructed face communicates a rich set of subtle queues and non-verbal emotions, and it’s indispensable to socializing. If you need evidence, I don’t know what to say to you other than this is self-evident to any human experiencing life among other people. If you think I’m just making this up: https://theconversation.com/face-time-heres-how-infants-learn-from-facial-expressions-53327 https://theconversation.com/face-time-heres-how-infants-lear... But further: why is the null hypothesis here that prolonged, universal masks wouldn’t disrupt child development? Is it unreasonable to assume that a multiple-year long regime of obscuring the primary mode of human identity and emotion would upset such a complex system like the development and socialization of a human being? Since when has it become normal to fiddle with major components of a complex system like society and make the burden of evidence: prove there’s harm. Humans generally screw things up in completely unexpected ways, overconfident in their own agency and supposed knowledge. This is hubris.

toss1 5y ago

Among your multiple obvious trolling against proven anti-COVID-19 measures, this may be the most preposterous suggestion. Perhaps there is some data on how harmful halloween masks are to kids. Or on pubescent Muslim girls/teens... (/sarc) You are assuming the existence of some implausible 2nd or 3rd order harm (masks harm kids and they are so un-adaptable that it couldn't possibly be mitigated), and then claiming lack of data from another implausible obstacle (that this supposed harm is so obviously bad that no ethics board would allow it to be studied) all as a pretext to avoid a proven-effective measure to prevent a first order, and often deadly harm. The burden would be on you to show actual harm from wearing a mask when thousands do it without harm all day every day (for work and for disease prevention) Also it is not just about the kids whom you wrongly assume to be invulnerable - it is about not making another petri dish to both further spread the disease to those whom the kids come in contact. I watched as the infection rates tracked in Britain, Quebec, Israel, etc. all rose with schools going into session, and fell in school breaks. Public health measures are not about you. Its about everyone taking on just a bit of responsibility to contain a deadly pandemic, and not freeloading on what collective immunity is provided by the more conscientious and intelligent around you.

CryptoPunk 5y ago
I am not trolling against these unnecessary anti-covid measures by providing 1. statistical evidence that shows the fear of covid in children is disproportionate to the risk covid poses to children, 2. logical arguments for why mask-wearing should not be mandated for children. Calling it trolling is exactly the kind of intolerant hostility that prevents a debate on the issue and puts society on autopilot to never-ending restrictive measures that are wildly disproportionate to the danger posed to children. >>Perhaps there is some data on how harmful halloween masks are to kids. Or on pubescent Muslim girls/teens... (/sarc) We don't wear halloween masks for most of every day, every day for months on end. The vast majority of Muslim girls who wear hijab don't wear a niqab that covers the face. This a bad faith effort to find comparable situations. Facial expressions are extremely important for communication. Forcing children to largely make do without them could very plausibly - I would say highly probably - harm their social development. This is not far-out speculation, and your smug dismissal of it is reckless and irresponsible. >>The burden would be on you to show actual harm from wearing a mask when thousands do it without harm all day every day (for work and for disease prevention) We have never had children wear masks for much of every day for months on end. Even medical professionals - who are adults and have already had normal childhoods without their faces being covered - don't wear masks all day at work on a regular basis. Masks are only worn in specific situations that don't encompass most of their work hours, like time in surgery. >>Also it is not just about the kids whom you wrongly assume to be invulnerable The evidence shows they are no more vulnerable to covid than to the flu. Masking the entire population of children is not a proportionate response to the risk covid poses to them. >>it is about not making another petri dish to both further spread the disease to those whom the kids come in contact. Children should not be burdened with daily masking to protect adults, and in any case, children are not known to be a high-risk transmission vector: https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/147/4/e2020048090 https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/147/4/e202004... The disappointing thing is that your responses to my arguments have been very weak - like comparing daily mask wearing to once a year Halloween mask wearing - showing you actually don't want to have a good faith debate on this issue.