8 ms·

Well, people want different things. I just want the hammer. New language features are all fun, but unless they actually result in faster execution, or allow yo

Well, people want different things. I just want the hammer. New language features are all fun, but unless they actually result in faster execution, or allow you to do things you could not do before, they're only use is to make some developers happy, which I don't think is particularly important. It looks like there's some real solid good APIs here though which is great to see. At first thought I imagined it'd just be useless pandering to developers like "You can now do closures or first class functions" or something equally useless.

famousactress 15y ago
Come on, let's get honest. The ecosystem matters. A lot. The community, and level of interest and delight in using the language matters.. Yes, even to you. It determines what third party tools are available, how easy it is to hire developers, and what machines the platform actually runs on. Your argument suggests you'd be just as happy and productive developing today in Pascal. "You can now do closures or first class functions" or something equally useless. Flamebait, but I'll take it. I think the dust-up over the possibility of this being added to Java really seemed to contribute to the decline and apparent disinterest of a lot of folks (I'd really be interested in Bob Lee's opinions here, since he was someone who's ideas I was particularly aligned with at the time and has since gone pretty quiet).. That said, lack of first class functions in Java isn't a trifle. It's why Java isn't all that much fun to program in compared to more expressive languages... and a bigger problem is that more than any other language I'm familiar with Java suffers from the problem of not being able to see enough ideas in a given amount of source code. I'm explaining that terribly, but I just mean that Java code is at least 60% scaffolding that isn't material to the author's intent. Closures, or first class functions done nicely would be a big step in alleviating that issue, IMHO.
- speckledjim 15y ago
  > and a bigger problem is that more than any other language I'm familiar with Java suffers from the problem of not being able to see enough ideas in a given amount of source code. This is not an issue with Java. It's an issue with the programmer. How are you going to cope with assembly language listings? Blame assembly language?
pivo 15y ago
> New language features are all fun, but unless they actually result in faster execution, or allow you to do things you could not do before, they're only use is to make some developers happy, which I don't think is particularly important. I think you don't appreciate how some language features can help you reduce the size and complexity of your code. Those are the kind of features that are sorely lacking in Java, and that means huge, bloated code bases. I'm tired of visually parsing 20 lines of a Java method and filtering out all the boilerplate iteration junk just to find the one or two lines that actually do something. Often this kind of thing can be reduced to a few simple, relevant lines when you have closures, for example.
- speckledjim 15y ago
  > Those are the kind of features that are sorely lacking in Java, and that means huge, bloated code bases. No, it doesn't. If you can't write concise Java, you're doing something wrong. And if you can't read code well, go practice some more. Disclaimer: I'm an outlier. I rarely use 3rd party libs, rarely write with anyone else, etc.
  - felipemnoa 15y ago
    >>No, it doesn't. If you can't write concise Java, you're doing something wrong. And if you can't read code well, go practice some more. Don't know why you are getting down voted. Even Joel Spolsky says that what really makes the difference is the programmer, not the language. If you suck in Java you will probably suck in other languages.
    - icebraining 15y ago
      Then why did he wrote his own language for his product? Oh right, because languages do matter. Sure, what makes one a great programmer is language independent, but that doesn't mean you can have the same code quality in every language. There's a reason why professionals in every field buy top quality tools and not cheap disposable crap.
      - 15y ago
orangecat 15y ago
At first thought I imagined it'd just be useless pandering to developers like "You can now do closures or first class functions" or something equally useless. Congratulations, you've found your Blub. (Mine is Python; I'm still not clear on what monads would do for me in practice).

famousactress 15y ago

Come on, let's get honest. The ecosystem matters. A lot. The community, and level of interest and delight in using the language matters.. Yes, even to you. It determines what third party tools are available, how easy it is to hire developers, and what machines the platform actually runs on. Your argument suggests you'd be just as happy and productive developing today in Pascal. "You can now do closures or first class functions" or something equally useless. Flamebait, but I'll take it. I think the dust-up over the possibility of this being added to Java really seemed to contribute to the decline and apparent disinterest of a lot of folks (I'd really be interested in Bob Lee's opinions here, since he was someone who's ideas I was particularly aligned with at the time and has since gone pretty quiet).. That said, lack of first class functions in Java isn't a trifle. It's why Java isn't all that much fun to program in compared to more expressive languages... and a bigger problem is that more than any other language I'm familiar with Java suffers from the problem of not being able to see enough ideas in a given amount of source code. I'm explaining that terribly, but I just mean that Java code is at least 60% scaffolding that isn't material to the author's intent. Closures, or first class functions done nicely would be a big step in alleviating that issue, IMHO.

speckledjim 15y ago
> and a bigger problem is that more than any other language I'm familiar with Java suffers from the problem of not being able to see enough ideas in a given amount of source code. This is not an issue with Java. It's an issue with the programmer. How are you going to cope with assembly language listings? Blame assembly language?

pivo 15y ago

> New language features are all fun, but unless they actually result in faster execution, or allow you to do things you could not do before, they're only use is to make some developers happy, which I don't think is particularly important. I think you don't appreciate how some language features can help you reduce the size and complexity of your code. Those are the kind of features that are sorely lacking in Java, and that means huge, bloated code bases. I'm tired of visually parsing 20 lines of a Java method and filtering out all the boilerplate iteration junk just to find the one or two lines that actually do something. Often this kind of thing can be reduced to a few simple, relevant lines when you have closures, for example.

speckledjim 15y ago
> Those are the kind of features that are sorely lacking in Java, and that means huge, bloated code bases. No, it doesn't. If you can't write concise Java, you're doing something wrong. And if you can't read code well, go practice some more. Disclaimer: I'm an outlier. I rarely use 3rd party libs, rarely write with anyone else, etc.
- felipemnoa 15y ago
  >>No, it doesn't. If you can't write concise Java, you're doing something wrong. And if you can't read code well, go practice some more. Don't know why you are getting down voted. Even Joel Spolsky says that what really makes the difference is the programmer, not the language. If you suck in Java you will probably suck in other languages.
  - icebraining 15y ago
    Then why did he wrote his own language for his product? Oh right, because languages do matter. Sure, what makes one a great programmer is language independent, but that doesn't mean you can have the same code quality in every language. There's a reason why professionals in every field buy top quality tools and not cheap disposable crap.
    - 15y ago

orangecat 15y ago

At first thought I imagined it'd just be useless pandering to developers like "You can now do closures or first class functions" or something equally useless. Congratulations, you've found your Blub. (Mine is Python; I'm still not clear on what monads would do for me in practice).