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>Haiti was the richest and most productive European colony in the world going into the 1800s.[1][2] Haiti’s legacy of debt began shortly after a widespread slav

>Haiti was the richest and most productive European colony in the world going into the 1800s.[1][2] Haiti’s legacy of debt began shortly after a widespread slave revolt against the French, with Haitians gaining their independence from France in 1804. President of the United States Thomas Jefferson – fearing that slaves gaining their independence would spread to the United States – stopped sending aid that began under his predecessor John Adams and pursued international isolation of Haiti during his tenure.[3] France had also pursued a policy that prevented Haiti from participating in trade in the Atlantic.[2] This isolation on the international stage made Haiti desperate for economic relief.[4] >France, with warships at the ready, sailed to Haiti in 1825 and demanded Haiti to compensate France for its loss of slaves and its slave colony.[5][6] In exchange for French recognition of Haiti as a sovereign republic, France demanded payment of 150 million francs.[5] In addition to the payment, France required that Haiti provide a fifty percent discount on its exported goods to them, making repayment more difficult.[4] In 1838, France agreed to reduce the debt to 90 million francs to be paid over a period of 30 years to compensate former plantation owners who had lost their property; the 2004 equivalent of US$21 billion.[5][4][7] Historians have traced loan documents from the time of the 1825 Ordinance, through the various refinancing efforts, to the final remittance to National City Bank (now Citibank) in 1947.[2] Founding fathers btw.

sprafa 5y ago
Where is this from! Wikipedia? Want to read more
- fidesomnes 5y ago
  He skipped the part of murdering every white, half white, and quarter white, on the entire island.
- jostylr 5y ago
  I read about some of the history of Haiti on the Digital Antiquarian: https://www.filfre.net/2018/09/shades-of-gray/ https://www.filfre.net/2018/09/shades-of-gray/ It is interwoven with describing an interactive fiction game, so not every word on there represents reality, but there are sources. I found it riveting when I first read it.
- wutwutwutwut 5y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_debt_of_Haiti https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_debt_of_Haiti You can find the source of a text just by picking a random sentence from it, put it in quotes and google for it.
- vvanders 5y ago
  https://www.theroot.com/as-haiti-burns-never-forget-white-people-did-that-1827454590 https://www.theroot.com/as-haiti-burns-never-forget-white-pe... covers it in some more detail. Like the article says it sounds unreal and almost to suspend disbelief, however if you independently look up the major events outlined they pencil out.
trainsplanes 5y ago
> President of the United States Thomas Jefferson – fearing that slaves gaining their independence would spread to the United States – stopped sending aid that began under his predecessor John Adams and pursued international isolation of Haiti during his tenure.[3] This skips over the context of why people absolutely feared the idea of slaves gaining freedom after the Haitian Revolution. The reason for that was the genocide carried out against non-black Haitians. [1] Even those people who actively opposed slavery, including children, were murdered. Americans feared that if slaves were freed, they'd all be raped and murdered as well I'm not here to justify slavery or anything. But people 200 years ago didn't consider all races equal, and they were especially put off by the events that transpired in Haiti and wanted to actively prevent anything similar from happening in their own hometown. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1804_Haiti_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1804_Haiti_massacre
- BoiledCabbage 5y ago
  To be clear, this was a horrible event - but frequently like here it leaves out any other events during the period. Killing 2000 whites at once is horrible. It came the end of a fight for independence / freedom from slavery that had been killing on average 10,000 blacks per year for 100 years. Over 1 million blacks died in Haiti during slavery. Killing does not justify killing, but at the same time 2,000 in the context of 1 million is something different. And yes those 1 million included women and children as well. This was not peaceful treatment: > Torture of slaves was routine; they were whipped, burned, buried alive, restrained and allowed to be bitten by swarms of insects, mutilated, raped, and had limbs amputated. The life expectancy of an enslaved person was 3 years. Yes that level of absurd. It's almost unfathomable. And during that same war Napoleon's armies were also committing massacres - and the thing that stopped them from elevating to genocide was that they kept losing battles/territory. Ie one army succeeded at what the other failed at. What happened in Haiti and the major powers treatment of the colony was disgusting and severely understudied/unknown by most people.
  - phkahler 5y ago
    >> Killing does not justify killing, I think the rest of your lengthy post refutes that. Or maybe it means "but we understand why they did it."
jorblumesea 5y ago
This is a simplistic take. Haiti has been buffeted by serious internal political forces which have negatively effected its growth trajectory and stopped it from having a viable economy. To blame it purely on France enforcing the debt is missing a fair amount of Haitian politics. It's not it wasn't a factor but it's way more complicated than just France bleeding Haiti dry. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Haiti#Political_struggles_(1843%E2%80%931915) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Haiti#Political_str...
themgt 5y ago
The problem with explanations for Haiti's poverty that use events from the 1800s is that Haiti had a GDP per capita as high as South Korea until the mid-1960s, and as high as China's until the mid-1970s. Even as high as Vietnam until 2010 - I visited Vietnam in 2010 and it was quite poor but overall quality of life seemed relatively decent considering and you could see signs of development and progress. Vietnam's GDP per capita has more than doubled since then. It's odd how Haiti had the same GDP per capita as now up-and-coming Vietnam just 10 years ago and yet most of the explanations for why Haiti's a hopeless basket case are citing events in the 1800s. https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=haiti%2C+china%2C+south+korea%2C+vietnam+gdp+per+capita https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=haiti%2C+china%2C+sout...
- vore 5y ago
  What is the significance of having a high GDP per capita? GDP is a metric of economic output, it is unwise to extrapolate it so far -- after all, Syria has a GDP 2x that of Haiti.
- BoiledCabbage 5y ago
  South East Asia became a key geo-polotical theater in the Cold-War right around that time. Hence two different East/West wars (Korea, Vietnam). US strategically became strong ally/supporter of S Korea and enormous growth in US/Korea trade policy, particularly textiles, dramatically grew S Korean economy. 1800s is a long time ago, but it's consequences continued long after. Debts were still being paid until almost 1950. It's easy to underestimate debt impact. US Debt to GD ratio, is about 100% and there is a lot of concern on long term US economic health. Venezuela is essentially a failing economy and is at 350%. France came and instituted a debt of 300% debt to GDP as reparations for slaveowners. That's essentially Venezuela territory. What happened to Haiti between 1950s to 2010 was the Duvalier family who came to power on a movement that grew out of the US occupation of Haiti in the first half of the 1900s. Not the same, but similar to Castro coming to Cuba post US actions there, and Iran post US propping up the Shah of Iran, US occupation created a groundswell against. It took a bit more time, but it eventually enabled the Duvalier family dynasty. And they were horribly corrupt, but they rode the wave. Haiti finally got rid of them and things started to look better. So why has it diverged from Vietnam since 2010? An enormous earthquake hit in 2010 and devastated the country. 3% of the population was killed. 15% of the population had their homes destroyed.
koheripbal 5y ago
This is such misinformation. Haiti was isolated after the revolt because the revolutionaries committed genocide against any and all whites. Genocide. Children, women - entire families were methodically slaughtered. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1804_Haiti_massacre#Massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1804_Haiti_massacre#Massacre ...and yet here you are using your misinformation to promote your own anti-US agenda. Shameful.
sumedh 5y ago
This comment sounds similar to what I read on reddit about the current problems in India are mostly because of the colonial British rule who left 70 years ago. How long will you keep blaming colonial rule and start accepting that the local people have to fix the problems.

sprafa 5y ago

Where is this from! Wikipedia? Want to read more

fidesomnes 5y ago
He skipped the part of murdering every white, half white, and quarter white, on the entire island.
jostylr 5y ago
I read about some of the history of Haiti on the Digital Antiquarian: https://www.filfre.net/2018/09/shades-of-gray/ https://www.filfre.net/2018/09/shades-of-gray/ It is interwoven with describing an interactive fiction game, so not every word on there represents reality, but there are sources. I found it riveting when I first read it.
wutwutwutwut 5y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_debt_of_Haiti https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_debt_of_Haiti You can find the source of a text just by picking a random sentence from it, put it in quotes and google for it.
vvanders 5y ago
https://www.theroot.com/as-haiti-burns-never-forget-white-people-did-that-1827454590 https://www.theroot.com/as-haiti-burns-never-forget-white-pe... covers it in some more detail. Like the article says it sounds unreal and almost to suspend disbelief, however if you independently look up the major events outlined they pencil out.

trainsplanes 5y ago

> President of the United States Thomas Jefferson – fearing that slaves gaining their independence would spread to the United States – stopped sending aid that began under his predecessor John Adams and pursued international isolation of Haiti during his tenure.[3] This skips over the context of why people absolutely feared the idea of slaves gaining freedom after the Haitian Revolution. The reason for that was the genocide carried out against non-black Haitians. [1] Even those people who actively opposed slavery, including children, were murdered. Americans feared that if slaves were freed, they'd all be raped and murdered as well I'm not here to justify slavery or anything. But people 200 years ago didn't consider all races equal, and they were especially put off by the events that transpired in Haiti and wanted to actively prevent anything similar from happening in their own hometown. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1804_Haiti_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1804_Haiti_massacre

BoiledCabbage 5y ago
To be clear, this was a horrible event - but frequently like here it leaves out any other events during the period. Killing 2000 whites at once is horrible. It came the end of a fight for independence / freedom from slavery that had been killing on average 10,000 blacks per year for 100 years. Over 1 million blacks died in Haiti during slavery. Killing does not justify killing, but at the same time 2,000 in the context of 1 million is something different. And yes those 1 million included women and children as well. This was not peaceful treatment: > Torture of slaves was routine; they were whipped, burned, buried alive, restrained and allowed to be bitten by swarms of insects, mutilated, raped, and had limbs amputated. The life expectancy of an enslaved person was 3 years. Yes that level of absurd. It's almost unfathomable. And during that same war Napoleon's armies were also committing massacres - and the thing that stopped them from elevating to genocide was that they kept losing battles/territory. Ie one army succeeded at what the other failed at. What happened in Haiti and the major powers treatment of the colony was disgusting and severely understudied/unknown by most people.
- phkahler 5y ago
  >> Killing does not justify killing, I think the rest of your lengthy post refutes that. Or maybe it means "but we understand why they did it."

jorblumesea 5y ago

This is a simplistic take. Haiti has been buffeted by serious internal political forces which have negatively effected its growth trajectory and stopped it from having a viable economy. To blame it purely on France enforcing the debt is missing a fair amount of Haitian politics. It's not it wasn't a factor but it's way more complicated than just France bleeding Haiti dry. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Haiti#Political_struggles_(1843%E2%80%931915) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Haiti#Political_str...

themgt 5y ago

The problem with explanations for Haiti's poverty that use events from the 1800s is that Haiti had a GDP per capita as high as South Korea until the mid-1960s, and as high as China's until the mid-1970s. Even as high as Vietnam until 2010 - I visited Vietnam in 2010 and it was quite poor but overall quality of life seemed relatively decent considering and you could see signs of development and progress. Vietnam's GDP per capita has more than doubled since then. It's odd how Haiti had the same GDP per capita as now up-and-coming Vietnam just 10 years ago and yet most of the explanations for why Haiti's a hopeless basket case are citing events in the 1800s. https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=haiti%2C+china%2C+south+korea%2C+vietnam+gdp+per+capita https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=haiti%2C+china%2C+sout...

vore 5y ago
What is the significance of having a high GDP per capita? GDP is a metric of economic output, it is unwise to extrapolate it so far -- after all, Syria has a GDP 2x that of Haiti.
BoiledCabbage 5y ago
South East Asia became a key geo-polotical theater in the Cold-War right around that time. Hence two different East/West wars (Korea, Vietnam). US strategically became strong ally/supporter of S Korea and enormous growth in US/Korea trade policy, particularly textiles, dramatically grew S Korean economy. 1800s is a long time ago, but it's consequences continued long after. Debts were still being paid until almost 1950. It's easy to underestimate debt impact. US Debt to GD ratio, is about 100% and there is a lot of concern on long term US economic health. Venezuela is essentially a failing economy and is at 350%. France came and instituted a debt of 300% debt to GDP as reparations for slaveowners. That's essentially Venezuela territory. What happened to Haiti between 1950s to 2010 was the Duvalier family who came to power on a movement that grew out of the US occupation of Haiti in the first half of the 1900s. Not the same, but similar to Castro coming to Cuba post US actions there, and Iran post US propping up the Shah of Iran, US occupation created a groundswell against. It took a bit more time, but it eventually enabled the Duvalier family dynasty. And they were horribly corrupt, but they rode the wave. Haiti finally got rid of them and things started to look better. So why has it diverged from Vietnam since 2010? An enormous earthquake hit in 2010 and devastated the country. 3% of the population was killed. 15% of the population had their homes destroyed.

koheripbal 5y ago

This is such misinformation. Haiti was isolated after the revolt because the revolutionaries committed genocide against any and all whites. Genocide. Children, women - entire families were methodically slaughtered. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1804_Haiti_massacre#Massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1804_Haiti_massacre#Massacre ...and yet here you are using your misinformation to promote your own anti-US agenda. Shameful.

sumedh 5y ago

This comment sounds similar to what I read on reddit about the current problems in India are mostly because of the colonial British rule who left 70 years ago. How long will you keep blaming colonial rule and start accepting that the local people have to fix the problems.