4 ms·

I wonder how far it would be possible to go with an open source / open hardware to have open process for IC development and production. What I mean is given re

I wonder how far it would be possible to go with an open source / open hardware to have open process for IC development and production. What I mean is given relatively old process but new tooling and software, could we expect to make usable system that is completely transparent from security point of view? And resistant to future attempts at preventing people from having access to trustworthy hardware?

bob1029 5y ago
This is all going to depend on exactly how much $$$ you have to spend. The major step-wise jumps in cost can usually be attributed to higher resolution photo techniques and the precision tools required. Most of the other processes can theoretically be carried out at garage-scale, as the precision is more about chemistry than dimension or scale.
- lmilcin 5y ago
  People buy 3d printers. I'm sure there would be people interested in building their own silicon chips, even if it would be a lot more involved. I can imagine a little niche market for tools and services for that kind of production. I design electronics but I order my PCBs from jlcpcb because I can get much better product with much less hassle.
showerst 5y ago
I'm thinking about trying to take this on myself, after watching and reading everything from Sam and Huygens Optics, and going through Chris Mack's course online. I think the problems for offering any kind of hardware solution for this is that everything involved is either "pretty easy" or "pretty darn hard". A decent UV laser, a workable optics bench, and 3/4 of the process chemicals are cheap and readily available. You can even build a "clean enough" fume hood. The processes are decently documented already in an open way. Super high precision 3x axis closed loop micrometer or piezo stages, a wire bonder, and good quality pre-layered wafers are so far beyond small distributor or hobbyist scale that they're relegated to elusive Ebay scores. The other 1/4 of the process chemicals require getting a big distributor like Sigma to work with you, and some of them really require chemistry training to work with safely, although it's great to see some of the workarounds. I believe Jeroen at Huygens Optics is a chemist by training. He's comfortable working with things like HF that you really don't want to promote to amateurs, but are essential to get past a few thousand transistors. Getting a complete process beyond the 70s era stuff at an amateur level is probably impossible right now. The absolutely insane requirements for silicon growing/cleaning alone are just more than one person can fit in their head, or their garage. I'd compare it to large liquid fueled rocket engines, which are another common nerd dream project. Plenty of people understand the principles, and a few college teams or the equivalent have built working ones, but there's probably just too much to know and understand to do it solo and with no serious budget.
ip26 5y ago
To make the economics work, you'd probably want to pool funding & run many wafers. Perhaps you could develop the world's first MaaS venture (Manufacturing As A Service)?

bob1029 5y ago

This is all going to depend on exactly how much $$$ you have to spend. The major step-wise jumps in cost can usually be attributed to higher resolution photo techniques and the precision tools required. Most of the other processes can theoretically be carried out at garage-scale, as the precision is more about chemistry than dimension or scale.

lmilcin 5y ago
People buy 3d printers. I'm sure there would be people interested in building their own silicon chips, even if it would be a lot more involved. I can imagine a little niche market for tools and services for that kind of production. I design electronics but I order my PCBs from jlcpcb because I can get much better product with much less hassle.

showerst 5y ago

I'm thinking about trying to take this on myself, after watching and reading everything from Sam and Huygens Optics, and going through Chris Mack's course online. I think the problems for offering any kind of hardware solution for this is that everything involved is either "pretty easy" or "pretty darn hard". A decent UV laser, a workable optics bench, and 3/4 of the process chemicals are cheap and readily available. You can even build a "clean enough" fume hood. The processes are decently documented already in an open way. Super high precision 3x axis closed loop micrometer or piezo stages, a wire bonder, and good quality pre-layered wafers are so far beyond small distributor or hobbyist scale that they're relegated to elusive Ebay scores. The other 1/4 of the process chemicals require getting a big distributor like Sigma to work with you, and some of them really require chemistry training to work with safely, although it's great to see some of the workarounds. I believe Jeroen at Huygens Optics is a chemist by training. He's comfortable working with things like HF that you really don't want to promote to amateurs, but are essential to get past a few thousand transistors. Getting a complete process beyond the 70s era stuff at an amateur level is probably impossible right now. The absolutely insane requirements for silicon growing/cleaning alone are just more than one person can fit in their head, or their garage. I'd compare it to large liquid fueled rocket engines, which are another common nerd dream project. Plenty of people understand the principles, and a few college teams or the equivalent have built working ones, but there's probably just too much to know and understand to do it solo and with no serious budget.

ip26 5y ago

To make the economics work, you'd probably want to pool funding & run many wafers. Perhaps you could develop the world's first MaaS venture (Manufacturing As A Service)?