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It's just my preference to not want to live in fear (i've long left the US) and have more freedom in practice (due to lack of ability for government to enforce

It's just my preference to not want to live in fear (i've long left the US) and have more freedom in practice (due to lack of ability for government to enforce or government practices). There are plenty of other countries that are increasingly catering to the opposite for those who want to feel safe over everything, plus will make it easy to meet up with friends from other places in the world who are also working remotely. I live in a country with less than 10% vaccination rate now, and there is plenty of hospital capacity to cater to non-covid related things, esp for ones that see more expats than not.

yosito 5y ago
I also prefer not to live in fear, which is why I wear a seatbelt in a car, a harness and a rope while climbing, and get a vaccine when there is a pandemic. Not living in fear doesn't have to mean pretending that life has no risks. It's about being aware of what the risks are and taking appropriate measures to protect yourself.
- cinquemb 5y ago
  > Not living in fear doesn't have to mean pretending that life has no risks. Ha, I faced more risks growing up when I had to avoid the local gangs walking to school as a kid than I do now. Most people never gave a shit about that (and still don't), esp those that didn't live there. I won't really pretend that people really care about my safety or the safety of others any more so than their personal preferences.
  - drooby 5y ago
    Sounds like you’d be great at Russian Roulette
    - cinquemb 5y ago
      Yeah, a full clip pointed to your head? Though, I guess thats not much of Russian Roulette anymore :P
  - syops 5y ago
    I don’t understand your response. Getting vaccinated for Covid has orders of magnitude less risk than not getting vaccinated. Desiring to live where there are no vaccination requirements has nothing to do with wanting to be free. That you’ve lived through more risky situations than Covid has nothing to do with these facts.
    - incrudible 5y ago
      > Getting vaccinated for Covid has orders of magnitude less risk than not getting vaccinated. I'm gonna have to fact-check that. In the UK, for under 50s with a delta infection, there is basically no risk reduction for death. For over 50s, the risk reduction is currently about 75%[1]. You would then have to scale that by the risk of getting infected, which would be a reduction of up to 90%, depending on when you got your vaccination and how well your immune system picked up on it. You might hit a single order of magnitude. [1] https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1009243/Technical_Briefing_20.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...
      - yosito 5y ago
        > In the UK, for under 50s with a delta infection, there is basically no risk reduction for death I am really not sure how you reached this conclusion from the 44 page paper you linked. That paper explicitly says that being vaccinated reduces risk of becoming infected, and only mentions that Ct values (detectable virus) are similar in infected people whether they are vaccinated or not, but similar Ct values does not imply similar disease trajectories or outcomes.
        incrudible 5y ago
        > I am really not sure how you reached this conclusion from the 44 page paper you linked. The data is on page 18/19. In the vaccinated group 13 out of 25,536 infections resulted in death (0.051%). In the unvaccinated group, it's 48 out of 147,612 (0.032%). > That paper explicitly says that being vaccinated reduces risk of becoming infected. Perhaps, but then even if you are infected, your risk of death (under 50) is still effectively the same. It's also not clear how big that risk reduction of infection is. It started out at 95% during the trials, Israel last reported 39%: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/23/delta-variant-pfizer-covid-vaccine-39percent-effective-in-israel-prevents-severe-illness.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/23/delta-variant-pfizer-covid-v... > similar Ct values does not imply similar disease trajectories or outcomes We still use Ct values as a proxy for infectiousness.
  - yosito 5y ago
    > when I had to avoid the local gangs walking to school Following your logic, its a great thing that local authorities didn't do anything stop the local gangs, nor encourage taking any safety measures to protect yourself. Yay freedom?
    - cinquemb 5y ago
      > Following your logic, its a great thing that local authorities didn't do anything stop the local gangs, nor encourage taking any safety measures to protect yourself. They did, always another task force this that or another (I was only aware of some of this growing up), but never really changed the realities on the ground that some were exposed to more than others. Just learned to grow up and not expect that much and try to work with the people around me and watch each other, which wouldn't be possible if we were just trying to coerce one another to do things we didn't want to do (and was already kind of hard because I couldn't necessarily trust some around me). By all means, live where you want to live and shoot your self up with the latest drug someone is pushing (whether that is some kid selling "water" on the corner or Pfizer incentivized doctors in a pop up tent) to your ability to do so.
    - ipaddr 5y ago
      He is saying you only care about your pet issue. Real issues affecting his life you will never consider because it's not part of your worldview. Based on your response it seems true. You don't care to respond about issues posing more danger than your pet issue
neither_color 5y ago
I can confirm that latin america is pretty chill right now but I'd be more tactful about how you frame it. So many people have had no choice but to comply with some pretty harsh restrictions that even if deep down they want to agree with you they'll lash out and accuse you of being reckless and getting people killed, blaming you for their restrictions continuing, etc. This applies not just to your old compatriots scared to travel but the people in the countries youre visiting. Colombia, from your list, for example may be open now but a few months ago the cops were beating people for going out. Not "please sir go back inside" but literal beat downs. When locals explained it me all I could say was "yeah it was rough for us too(even though not really Im from a laid back state in the US)"
- cinquemb 5y ago
  > but I'd be more tactful about how you frame it. Fair enough, but thats never really how i've been, and old habits die hard. > So many people have had no choice but to comply with some pretty harsh restrictions True, but the writing has been on the wall for a while in certain jurisdictions that could even enable governments to do such things. I have a lot of sympathy for those who wanted out but couldn't for whatever reason (this goes beyond covid). > Colombia, from your list, for example may be open now but a few months ago the cops were beating people for going out. Not "please sir go back inside" but literal beat downs Yeah, cops like to beat down folks for various reasons everyday throughout the world (some places more than others), with or without covid restrictions, and that sucks in general.
benjaminwootton 5y ago
I’ll give you some support as I’ve also spent most of the last 18 months in countries with a more measured response to the virus. It’s difficult for me to go and do the nomad thing, but escaping the madness for a year or two would be my main motivation.
- cinquemb 5y ago
  That's completely fair, all I'm saying is that i'm for people to have the choice and options to do so if they can and want to and live where they want to live. If people want to take more risk along one dimension compared to other things they care about, good! If they want to take less risk along another dimension for things they care about, that's good too! More governmental jurisdictions offering a variety of ways people can try to live the way they want to live is better than less, imo.
standardUser 5y ago
I'm not sure why you would live in fear, regardless of location. Sounds like an unpleasant way to live. But we should all live smartly enough to avoid overwhelming healthcare systems with COVID cases, which is a pretty easy thing to do at this point and requires no fear whatsoever.
XargonEnder 5y ago
I'm looking for a new country to move to, where can I get more freedom than USA?

yosito 5y ago

I also prefer not to live in fear, which is why I wear a seatbelt in a car, a harness and a rope while climbing, and get a vaccine when there is a pandemic. Not living in fear doesn't have to mean pretending that life has no risks. It's about being aware of what the risks are and taking appropriate measures to protect yourself.

cinquemb 5y ago
> Not living in fear doesn't have to mean pretending that life has no risks. Ha, I faced more risks growing up when I had to avoid the local gangs walking to school as a kid than I do now. Most people never gave a shit about that (and still don't), esp those that didn't live there. I won't really pretend that people really care about my safety or the safety of others any more so than their personal preferences.
- drooby 5y ago
  Sounds like you’d be great at Russian Roulette
  - cinquemb 5y ago
    Yeah, a full clip pointed to your head? Though, I guess thats not much of Russian Roulette anymore :P
- syops 5y ago
  I don’t understand your response. Getting vaccinated for Covid has orders of magnitude less risk than not getting vaccinated. Desiring to live where there are no vaccination requirements has nothing to do with wanting to be free. That you’ve lived through more risky situations than Covid has nothing to do with these facts.
  - incrudible 5y ago
    > Getting vaccinated for Covid has orders of magnitude less risk than not getting vaccinated. I'm gonna have to fact-check that. In the UK, for under 50s with a delta infection, there is basically no risk reduction for death. For over 50s, the risk reduction is currently about 75%[1]. You would then have to scale that by the risk of getting infected, which would be a reduction of up to 90%, depending on when you got your vaccination and how well your immune system picked up on it. You might hit a single order of magnitude. [1] https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1009243/Technical_Briefing_20.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...
    - yosito 5y ago
      > In the UK, for under 50s with a delta infection, there is basically no risk reduction for death I am really not sure how you reached this conclusion from the 44 page paper you linked. That paper explicitly says that being vaccinated reduces risk of becoming infected, and only mentions that Ct values (detectable virus) are similar in infected people whether they are vaccinated or not, but similar Ct values does not imply similar disease trajectories or outcomes.
      - incrudible 5y ago
        > I am really not sure how you reached this conclusion from the 44 page paper you linked. The data is on page 18/19. In the vaccinated group 13 out of 25,536 infections resulted in death (0.051%). In the unvaccinated group, it's 48 out of 147,612 (0.032%). > That paper explicitly says that being vaccinated reduces risk of becoming infected. Perhaps, but then even if you are infected, your risk of death (under 50) is still effectively the same. It's also not clear how big that risk reduction of infection is. It started out at 95% during the trials, Israel last reported 39%: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/23/delta-variant-pfizer-covid-vaccine-39percent-effective-in-israel-prevents-severe-illness.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/23/delta-variant-pfizer-covid-v... > similar Ct values does not imply similar disease trajectories or outcomes We still use Ct values as a proxy for infectiousness.
- yosito 5y ago
  > when I had to avoid the local gangs walking to school Following your logic, its a great thing that local authorities didn't do anything stop the local gangs, nor encourage taking any safety measures to protect yourself. Yay freedom?
  - cinquemb 5y ago
    > Following your logic, its a great thing that local authorities didn't do anything stop the local gangs, nor encourage taking any safety measures to protect yourself. They did, always another task force this that or another (I was only aware of some of this growing up), but never really changed the realities on the ground that some were exposed to more than others. Just learned to grow up and not expect that much and try to work with the people around me and watch each other, which wouldn't be possible if we were just trying to coerce one another to do things we didn't want to do (and was already kind of hard because I couldn't necessarily trust some around me). By all means, live where you want to live and shoot your self up with the latest drug someone is pushing (whether that is some kid selling "water" on the corner or Pfizer incentivized doctors in a pop up tent) to your ability to do so.
  - ipaddr 5y ago
    He is saying you only care about your pet issue. Real issues affecting his life you will never consider because it's not part of your worldview. Based on your response it seems true. You don't care to respond about issues posing more danger than your pet issue

neither_color 5y ago

I can confirm that latin america is pretty chill right now but I'd be more tactful about how you frame it. So many people have had no choice but to comply with some pretty harsh restrictions that even if deep down they want to agree with you they'll lash out and accuse you of being reckless and getting people killed, blaming you for their restrictions continuing, etc. This applies not just to your old compatriots scared to travel but the people in the countries youre visiting. Colombia, from your list, for example may be open now but a few months ago the cops were beating people for going out. Not "please sir go back inside" but literal beat downs. When locals explained it me all I could say was "yeah it was rough for us too(even though not really Im from a laid back state in the US)"

cinquemb 5y ago
> but I'd be more tactful about how you frame it. Fair enough, but thats never really how i've been, and old habits die hard. > So many people have had no choice but to comply with some pretty harsh restrictions True, but the writing has been on the wall for a while in certain jurisdictions that could even enable governments to do such things. I have a lot of sympathy for those who wanted out but couldn't for whatever reason (this goes beyond covid). > Colombia, from your list, for example may be open now but a few months ago the cops were beating people for going out. Not "please sir go back inside" but literal beat downs Yeah, cops like to beat down folks for various reasons everyday throughout the world (some places more than others), with or without covid restrictions, and that sucks in general.

benjaminwootton 5y ago

I’ll give you some support as I’ve also spent most of the last 18 months in countries with a more measured response to the virus. It’s difficult for me to go and do the nomad thing, but escaping the madness for a year or two would be my main motivation.

cinquemb 5y ago
That's completely fair, all I'm saying is that i'm for people to have the choice and options to do so if they can and want to and live where they want to live. If people want to take more risk along one dimension compared to other things they care about, good! If they want to take less risk along another dimension for things they care about, that's good too! More governmental jurisdictions offering a variety of ways people can try to live the way they want to live is better than less, imo.

standardUser 5y ago

I'm not sure why you would live in fear, regardless of location. Sounds like an unpleasant way to live. But we should all live smartly enough to avoid overwhelming healthcare systems with COVID cases, which is a pretty easy thing to do at this point and requires no fear whatsoever.

XargonEnder 5y ago

I'm looking for a new country to move to, where can I get more freedom than USA?