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This article reminds me of another from 2006 about PTSD in elephants. In various parts of the world, culling events and poaching have killed elder elephants in

This article reminds me of another from 2006 about PTSD in elephants. In various parts of the world, culling events and poaching have killed elder elephants in elephant clans, and traumatized the mostly young survivors, who grow up without guidance in parenting among other crucial activities. This has resulted in a breakdown of the elephant family structure, so that these traumatized and directionless young and mostly male elephants roam the grasslands engaging in senseless acts of violence against other animals and humans (the latter being probably more justified). One of the Ugandan researchers profiled draws parallels between what is happening to elephants and what has happened in the recent history of her country, with the civil war killing parents and grandparents, creating a generation of young traumatized and directionless men who similarly engage in senseless violence and bloodshed. It's a really beautiful and really sad article https://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/08/magazine/08elephant.html https://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/08/magazine/08elephant.html

randycupertino 5y ago
I don't think I can handle the article seeing as merely your above comment was so strikingly beautiful and sad! And business-as-usual will just keep churning along, everything is fine, everything is peachy. Profits profits profits. Exploitation, single use plastics, dead oceans, destruction.
- javajosh 5y ago
  The shocking truth is that, even if you exclude empathy (which is sadly quite common), this represents a total abrogation of humanities collective responsibility to protect ourselves. Earth and her biosphere is our space-ship and our life-support system, respectively, and we cannot seem to come to grips with this simple fact. It doesn't anger me when people act in ignorance. What angers me are those who know better, and keep others in ignorance with their cynically spent PR money, and those who know better and repeat the lies to pander to ignorance and garner votes. It is not a message that can be addressed with reason, since it appeals to the basest instincts of men: don't worry, everything is fine, keep doing what you want, you're justified. The ability to doubt (let alone challenge) authority when authority is telling you what you want to hear is vanishingly rare.
  - relax88 5y ago
    Not that I disagree with anything you’ve said, but I feel it’s important to acknowledge the often ignored fact that the same process of industrialization and capitalism that has impacted the environment has also lifted billions of people out of poverty and brought about the the highest standards of living in human history. We are only now seeing the structural changes that will stabilize the human population after generations of growth from the advent of industrial agriculture. Contraception has only been widely available in most parts of the world for ~30 years and there are still places without it. It’s very different to deliver this moral lecture to a Starbucks sipping, SUV driving North American, than to someone who lives in a rural village in Mongolia. Effective environmental altruism must recognize the human element as it forms a key piece of the ethical dilemma. You will never convince someone who lives in poverty or other forms of hardship to make sacrifices to preserve the environment, and it may not even be ethical to attempt to do so.
    - bittercynic 5y ago
      For me this is proves the urgency of alleviating poverty.
thaumasiotes 5y ago
> This has resulted in a breakdown of the elephant family structure Recovery from this kind of thing is actually quite quick in terms of generations, usually one or two. In this case, that's tough to observe, because one elephant generation is quite long in human terms. (And of course, if the old ones keep getting poached, the problem will keep being refreshed rather than recovering.)
- bbarnett 5y ago
  Quick for core stuff, perhaps. Crows can vocalize ultrasonic sounds, like many other creatures can. They have been known to use these sounds, especially during the rain, to find grubs underground. I have personally observed an elder crow, teaching a young crow, how to do this. I wonder how many generations it took, for crows to learn this the first time? I suspect many.
  - morpheos137 5y ago
    This is fascinating behavior. Do you have a link with more details. I had no idea that cows deliberately hunted grubs. I wonder if it is a regional herd "cultural" behavior or common to cows worldwide?
    - GavinMcG 5y ago
      Crows, not cows.
    - bbarnett 5y ago
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYl_d7dc-EY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYl_d7dc-EY If you watch, the older crow is making large vertical head movements, and if you really crank the volume, you can hear part of the sound it is making. The rest isn't in a hearable frequency. They noticed me watching, and the older crow didn't immediately believe the younger, more excitable crow when it called an alert, but you can see him walk over and react when he sees me. More than anything, he seems mad. :P I have a relationship with crows here, for a variety of reasons, suffice it to say, the older crow knows I am not a real threat. Something to be wary of, but not a real threat. But, would you tell a child, when seeing a tiger, not to be worried? Even if you knew that particular tiger wasn't a threat? Anyhow, after I googled, and yup... ultrasonic hunting. (And as buddy said, crows, not cows) Yeah video quality sucks, I couldn't get closer, just grabbed my phone, did what I could to record it.
galaxyLogic 5y ago
Bible says so: "I, Yahweh your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and on the fourth generation". You might think that is unfair, but that is how it is the sins of the fathers affect future generations
- andrepd 5y ago
  > visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and on the fourth generation What a repugnant philosophy.
  - GlennS 5y ago
    I think that's a reasonable response to the phrase taken at face value, but... It's been pointed out to me that this is probably an observation of how the world is rather than a commandment for how it should be. (Despite the phrasing in English.) (I probably agree with you about Christianity being a pretty odd system of ethics overall, but this bit is probably just some obvious wisdom packaged a bit strangely.)
    - beardyw 5y ago
      I think you will find that comes from the Torah, Jewish wisdom. Personally I think if that were still true Christ died for nothing.
      - GlennS 5y ago
        > I think you will find that comes from the Torah, Jewish wisdom. Thanks for the correction. > Personally I think if that were still true Christ died for nothing. I'm suggesting it's just a rather obvious statement of inheritance of circumstance and reputation. Of course if whoever wrote it really thought that people deserve to be punished for their ancestors' mistakes then they can fuck off. But I do think it's what happens in practice.
        5y ago

randycupertino 5y ago

I don't think I can handle the article seeing as merely your above comment was so strikingly beautiful and sad! And business-as-usual will just keep churning along, everything is fine, everything is peachy. Profits profits profits. Exploitation, single use plastics, dead oceans, destruction.

javajosh 5y ago
The shocking truth is that, even if you exclude empathy (which is sadly quite common), this represents a total abrogation of humanities collective responsibility to protect ourselves. Earth and her biosphere is our space-ship and our life-support system, respectively, and we cannot seem to come to grips with this simple fact. It doesn't anger me when people act in ignorance. What angers me are those who know better, and keep others in ignorance with their cynically spent PR money, and those who know better and repeat the lies to pander to ignorance and garner votes. It is not a message that can be addressed with reason, since it appeals to the basest instincts of men: don't worry, everything is fine, keep doing what you want, you're justified. The ability to doubt (let alone challenge) authority when authority is telling you what you want to hear is vanishingly rare.
- relax88 5y ago
  Not that I disagree with anything you’ve said, but I feel it’s important to acknowledge the often ignored fact that the same process of industrialization and capitalism that has impacted the environment has also lifted billions of people out of poverty and brought about the the highest standards of living in human history. We are only now seeing the structural changes that will stabilize the human population after generations of growth from the advent of industrial agriculture. Contraception has only been widely available in most parts of the world for ~30 years and there are still places without it. It’s very different to deliver this moral lecture to a Starbucks sipping, SUV driving North American, than to someone who lives in a rural village in Mongolia. Effective environmental altruism must recognize the human element as it forms a key piece of the ethical dilemma. You will never convince someone who lives in poverty or other forms of hardship to make sacrifices to preserve the environment, and it may not even be ethical to attempt to do so.
  - bittercynic 5y ago
    For me this is proves the urgency of alleviating poverty.

thaumasiotes 5y ago

> This has resulted in a breakdown of the elephant family structure Recovery from this kind of thing is actually quite quick in terms of generations, usually one or two. In this case, that's tough to observe, because one elephant generation is quite long in human terms. (And of course, if the old ones keep getting poached, the problem will keep being refreshed rather than recovering.)

bbarnett 5y ago
Quick for core stuff, perhaps. Crows can vocalize ultrasonic sounds, like many other creatures can. They have been known to use these sounds, especially during the rain, to find grubs underground. I have personally observed an elder crow, teaching a young crow, how to do this. I wonder how many generations it took, for crows to learn this the first time? I suspect many.
- morpheos137 5y ago
  This is fascinating behavior. Do you have a link with more details. I had no idea that cows deliberately hunted grubs. I wonder if it is a regional herd "cultural" behavior or common to cows worldwide?
  - GavinMcG 5y ago
    Crows, not cows.
  - bbarnett 5y ago
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYl_d7dc-EY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYl_d7dc-EY If you watch, the older crow is making large vertical head movements, and if you really crank the volume, you can hear part of the sound it is making. The rest isn't in a hearable frequency. They noticed me watching, and the older crow didn't immediately believe the younger, more excitable crow when it called an alert, but you can see him walk over and react when he sees me. More than anything, he seems mad. :P I have a relationship with crows here, for a variety of reasons, suffice it to say, the older crow knows I am not a real threat. Something to be wary of, but not a real threat. But, would you tell a child, when seeing a tiger, not to be worried? Even if you knew that particular tiger wasn't a threat? Anyhow, after I googled, and yup... ultrasonic hunting. (And as buddy said, crows, not cows) Yeah video quality sucks, I couldn't get closer, just grabbed my phone, did what I could to record it.

galaxyLogic 5y ago

Bible says so: "I, Yahweh your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and on the fourth generation". You might think that is unfair, but that is how it is the sins of the fathers affect future generations

andrepd 5y ago
> visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and on the fourth generation What a repugnant philosophy.
- GlennS 5y ago
  I think that's a reasonable response to the phrase taken at face value, but... It's been pointed out to me that this is probably an observation of how the world is rather than a commandment for how it should be. (Despite the phrasing in English.) (I probably agree with you about Christianity being a pretty odd system of ethics overall, but this bit is probably just some obvious wisdom packaged a bit strangely.)
  - beardyw 5y ago
    I think you will find that comes from the Torah, Jewish wisdom. Personally I think if that were still true Christ died for nothing.
    - GlennS 5y ago
      > I think you will find that comes from the Torah, Jewish wisdom. Thanks for the correction. > Personally I think if that were still true Christ died for nothing. I'm suggesting it's just a rather obvious statement of inheritance of circumstance and reputation. Of course if whoever wrote it really thought that people deserve to be punished for their ancestors' mistakes then they can fuck off. But I do think it's what happens in practice.
      - 5y ago