4 ms·

I read your post, which is why I was confused about your knee-jerk reaction, which was based on an over-interpretation of what I was advocating. If someone is

I read your post, which is why I was confused about your knee-jerk reaction, which was based on an over-interpretation of what I was advocating. If someone is defensive, or even just stays silent, when sexist and alienating behavior occurs, then that person can't complain much if people see them as complicit. If they don't want to be tarred with that brush, then they should speak out against it, and work to make the social group more welcoming.

kstenerud 15y ago
Therein lies the problem. I haven't seen sexism in the workplace. I'd certainly condemn it if I did, but I haven't. Is that still not enough? Should I carry around a placard denouncing the sexists everywhere I go? Should I just take the word of someone who got burned by something that there's a huge problem, without anything beyond anecdotal evidence to back up the claim? Should I do the same for racists? How about homophobes? How about bullies? How about people who leave stuff to rot in the communal fridge? Am I anti-gay because I don't attend gay rallies? Am I complicit in animal cruelty because I don't volunteer for the SPCA? Am I anti-veteran because I don't help out at the local homeless shelter? Come to my workplace and point out the sexism, and I'll act to stop it. Otherwise, don't paint me with your brush. This whole "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem" attitude is getting old.
- michaelchisari 15y ago
  Are you not involved in communities such as Hacker News? You don't exactly have to hunt for places where working against sexism could be helpful, you can do it from the comfort of your own home. We live in an online world, and in our industry, our culture is reflected and built online as much as in real life. You don't have to wait for things to show up on your doorstep. Most importantly, though, just because you haven't seen sexism in the workplace, doesn't mean it hasn't existed. A little bit of education never hurts anyone, and being able to better identify what is problematic might show you that things are not as squeaky clean as you thought.
  - kstenerud 15y ago
    That's my point. There are a million different causes I can become a part of. What makes sexism so special that I must pay special attention to it? Every example given so far has been rather obvious to recognize as inappropriate behavior. Like any other inappropriate behavior, I'll deal with it as it comes. But I'm certainly not going to champion the cause, and you certainly have no right to criticize me for refusing to do so.
    - michaelchisari 15y ago
      you certainly have no right to criticize me for refusing to do so. On the contrary, I have every right to criticize you for doing so. Why wouldn't I have that right?
    - kstenerud 15y ago
      > On the contrary, I have every right to criticize you for doing so. Why wouldn't I have that right? This is either: 1. Someone facetiously arguing semantics. 2. Someone who believes that their pet cause trumps all others. Either way, it's a discussion ender.
      - michaelchisari 15y ago
        It's neither, it's an honest question as to why you feel your decisions and actions (or lack thereof) are beyond reproach.
        kstenerud 15y ago
        When it comes to deciding whether to champion someone's cause or not, yes. How would you feel if someone started criticizing you for not getting on a plane to Darfur to rebuild war torn villages? How about your choice not to get on a boat to blockade tankers? How about your choice not to hand out flyers for the SPCA? How about your choice not to partake in attempts to pierce Gaza blockades? I could name many more causes you're guilty of not partaking in. The question actually is: Are YOU justified in criticizing others who don't share your zeal in a particular cause? Because by judging others, so too are you judged.

kstenerud 15y ago

Therein lies the problem. I haven't seen sexism in the workplace. I'd certainly condemn it if I did, but I haven't. Is that still not enough? Should I carry around a placard denouncing the sexists everywhere I go? Should I just take the word of someone who got burned by something that there's a huge problem, without anything beyond anecdotal evidence to back up the claim? Should I do the same for racists? How about homophobes? How about bullies? How about people who leave stuff to rot in the communal fridge? Am I anti-gay because I don't attend gay rallies? Am I complicit in animal cruelty because I don't volunteer for the SPCA? Am I anti-veteran because I don't help out at the local homeless shelter? Come to my workplace and point out the sexism, and I'll act to stop it. Otherwise, don't paint me with your brush. This whole "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem" attitude is getting old.

michaelchisari 15y ago
Are you not involved in communities such as Hacker News? You don't exactly have to hunt for places where working against sexism could be helpful, you can do it from the comfort of your own home. We live in an online world, and in our industry, our culture is reflected and built online as much as in real life. You don't have to wait for things to show up on your doorstep. Most importantly, though, just because you haven't seen sexism in the workplace, doesn't mean it hasn't existed. A little bit of education never hurts anyone, and being able to better identify what is problematic might show you that things are not as squeaky clean as you thought.
- kstenerud 15y ago
  That's my point. There are a million different causes I can become a part of. What makes sexism so special that I must pay special attention to it? Every example given so far has been rather obvious to recognize as inappropriate behavior. Like any other inappropriate behavior, I'll deal with it as it comes. But I'm certainly not going to champion the cause, and you certainly have no right to criticize me for refusing to do so.
  - michaelchisari 15y ago
    you certainly have no right to criticize me for refusing to do so. On the contrary, I have every right to criticize you for doing so. Why wouldn't I have that right?
  - kstenerud 15y ago
    > On the contrary, I have every right to criticize you for doing so. Why wouldn't I have that right? This is either: 1. Someone facetiously arguing semantics. 2. Someone who believes that their pet cause trumps all others. Either way, it's a discussion ender.
    - michaelchisari 15y ago
      It's neither, it's an honest question as to why you feel your decisions and actions (or lack thereof) are beyond reproach.
      - kstenerud 15y ago
        When it comes to deciding whether to champion someone's cause or not, yes. How would you feel if someone started criticizing you for not getting on a plane to Darfur to rebuild war torn villages? How about your choice not to get on a boat to blockade tankers? How about your choice not to hand out flyers for the SPCA? How about your choice not to partake in attempts to pierce Gaza blockades? I could name many more causes you're guilty of not partaking in. The question actually is: Are YOU justified in criticizing others who don't share your zeal in a particular cause? Because by judging others, so too are you judged.