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Super illegal in Germany, luckily. It's shocking to me how people here accept this as normal. You shouldn't lose all rights just because someone is paying you
by foepys 5y ago
Super illegal in Germany, luckily. It's shocking to me how people here accept this as normal.
You shouldn't lose all rights just because someone is paying you any amount of money. The company does not own you. You're not a soulless resource that can be used and tossed whenever your boss pleases.
- garmaine 5y agoEven when the company owns the computer and it is on company time?
- flimflamm 5y agoYes.
- jcelerier 5y agoCompanies are never ever more important than human beings
- garmaine 5y agoOk sure, but I was asking a technical question about German law, not morality.
- foepys 5y agoThe company cannot even look at the employee's work emails unless there are already indications that the employee is acting in bad faith ("Anfangsverdacht").
- refurb 5y agoThat doesn’t seem true? ” According to the guidelines, if the use of the Internet and email services is only permitted for business purposes, the employer can check the Internet use of the employees randomly, to make sure that they use it for business purposes only.” https://www.mondaq.com/germany/privacy-protection/496710/germany-issues-privacy-guidelines-for-employer-access-to-employee-email-and-internet-use https://www.mondaq.com/germany/privacy-protection/496710/ger...
- foepys 5y agoThis is false for the general case. The employer always needs a reason, e.g. the employee appears to be browsing the internet the whole day instead of working. And even then, the work council has to be consulted. The employer can look at work emails if it's the last resort (no other means to get the information), they have a reason (like if employee is sick and a customer emailed them directly with important contract data), a member of the work council is present, and it's been cleared by the GDPR person (whatever they're called in English). Labor laws have been shaped by courts so it's quite confusing, even to Germans. Rulings are often decided by minuscule details that don't appear to be big but often are, so generalizing is hard.
- j16sdiz 5y agoI found this unproductive. If a customer phone the support directly, are they going to hold the phone for hour waiting for approval? Only after the approval, the support can start reading the work email and decided the next step. Co worker and manager need to aware of the work progress, just in case the employee is sick or something. Employee should do their private work on their own devices.
- foepys 5y agoThe company can easily take measures to prevent situations like this by using a proper CRM solution. If the company didn't, it's its own fault. Flaws in internal processes don't legitimize surveillance.
- pessimizer 5y agoIt's also valuable to co-workers and managers to know if the employee might be engaging in behavior that could get them sick, or if they are looking for another job. So employers should really be able to monitor their employee's own devices, health records, and expenditures.
- j16sdiz 5y agoDoes German law allow recording support helpdesk phone call? What make email different from phone call?
- chrisco255 5y agoIt's a huge security risk to add a keylogger. It's also a deep invasion of privacy and compromises the ability of employees to conduct private one on ones, which are important for the mental well-being of a company of people. Imagine working from an office with a microphone attached to your desk that pipes everything you say to your boss, your boss's boss, all the way up the chain. People need to vent. Sometimes people need to waste time and shoot the shit about things unrelated to work. People need to be able to discuss things in private without fear. Otherwise the culture will descend into a constant state of paranoia and dysfunction.
- randycupertino 5y agoIt basically devolves the workplace into wargames where the employee focus becomes an "us vs them" battle stalemate with management re: tracking and obsessing over the KPIs vs how to beat the KPIs. I worked in call center management and saw this play out real time. They made clients wear fitbits and hit metrics to qualify for the cheaper health insurance plan. Workers put the fitbits on drill bits and ran drills to whirl around the fitbit to beat the metrics. Then there was a mass group chat about how to beat the system. Then peoples personal cell phones had to be banned and kept in lockers outside the offices. And around and around and on and on it went. It was literally like Tom and Jerry and everyone was miserable and meanwhile the company wasn't doing well because nobody was focused on getting any high quality work done because of all the distractions and drama over the tracking.
- BLKNSLVR 5y agoGood working relationships has the capacity to boost productivity like nothing else. The cost of the unproductive time of a pleasant work-place conversation should be easily out-weighed by 'happy socially-engaged-in-the-workplace employee' pulling out all the stops to solve problems for their colleagues. I don't believe this can be represented by KPIs, and therefore doesn't factor into (bad) managements' view of the world.
- neolog 5y ago"Company time" is steering you wrong there. When a worker's shift starts she doesn't become chattel property of the employer for the duration of her shift. Instead, she's doing work that the company paid for while retaining her own personhood.
- garmaine 5y agoMy question is about German law. Company time is relevant because a contract requires compensation in order to be in effect (which you are paid for under company time).
- Broken_Hippo 5y agoIf something is a right, it shouldn't go away while "on company time" - even if they own the computer. You are not an object.
- awsthro00945 5y ago>You shouldn't lose all rights I'm not a huge fan of this monitoring, but why be so dramatic? You aren't losing any rights here, let alone all rights. You do not have a right to use your employer's computer without your employer's permission. If you want to do something that isn't monitored, just use your own computer instead of your employer's computer. You should be doing this anyway, keystroke monitoring or not.
- BiteCode_dev 5y agoThe inside of a company is not a bubble isolated from the rest of the society and with a different set of laws. Despite what billionaires really want it to be.
- awsthro00945 5y agoThat's correct, which is why the same laws that say you can't just take someone else's computer and do whatever you want with it apply within a company just the same. On a company laptop, you do not have the right to do anything on it without permission from the company. These are the same laws that also allow surveillance cameras not only within company properties, but even in public. You do not have the right to privacy when you are not in a private space. This applies to company computers just the same.
- BiteCode_dev 5y agoThat's why there are badges that open doors and laptops, and permissions linked to accounts.
- vidarh 5y agoThis kind of dystopia is thankfully not one that everyone lives in. In Europe you generally have a graded expectation of privacy that does not disappear the moment you enter the workspace. We recognise that people have needs that are not met if you treat them as automatons. To your surveillance camera point, I live in the UK which is renowned for the number of cameras. If I point a surveillance camera at the sidewalk in front of my house, I'd break the law.
- na85 5y ago>It's shocking to me how people here accept this as normal. I believe that you are seeing the zeitgeist of the enormous proportion of the users here whom are wannabe capitalists with a dream of one day being the oppressive CEO abusing their workers. This isn't the best forum if you want to discuss progressive social issues like labor rights and modernization thereof.
- awsthro00945 5y ago>wannabe capitalists with a dream of one day being the oppressive CEO abusing their workers Alternatively, we're just people that recognize that it's absurd to think you have, or even deserve, to use someone else's property for whatever you want. Do you also think it's oppressive that public libraries have rules against using their computers for porn? Nice ad hominem, though.
- foepys 5y ago> it's absurd to think you have, or even deserve, to use someone else's property for whatever you want How you read this into my comment is beyond me. An employee cannot use the company-provided resources in whatever way they like. If they do, that's grounds for termination. German labor laws recognize that total surveillance is not aligning with the values of a free society. Life does not stop at work, every company event should tell you that. Instead there needs to be indications that the employee is acting in bad faith, then the employer can "surveil" the employee in a limited fashion, like read work emails (not private emails) or search their desk. The same as police cannot search you whenever they like without reason.
- s5300 5y ago>You're not a soulless resource that can be used and tossed whenever your boss pleases. Hahaha. We Americans have this little term called "Human Capital"
- foepys 5y agoThe term "Human Resources" is slowly creeping into German corporate speak. Before that it was called "Personalverwaltung" (employee management) which I think is a way better and more fitting name.
- BLKNSLVR 5y agoYou're a good decade behind - for the better. In Australia the terminology HCM is working it's way into common corporate usage. Human Capital Management. Another scale up (down) from where you're moving to. Next step might be rolling HCM into a function of the Finance Department. (moreso).
- TeMPOraL 5y agoHoly hell. "Human Resources" implied that as an employee, you're a resource to be exploited - used up and discarded. "Human Capital" implies your employer owns you.
- bserge 5y ago> You're not a soulless resource that can be used and tossed whenever your boss pleases. I am. Just thinking everything's great doesn't actually change reality lol
- beebmam 5y agoYou can always work somewhere else. Or start your own company. Or even organize, which is a legally protected ability in the United States. Don't accept that bullshit. Especially if you're a software engineer and have a million opportunities. I resigned from a big tech company because I refuse to build any weapons, period. I'll always refuse to build them as long as I live. I can easily get hired somewhere else. Have some self respect and demand to be treated with dignity. To hell with the bosses' intimidation
- southerntofu 5y agoTo hell with the bosses. Organize with a few friends/coworkers and start a workers cooperative, where every one is paid the same and has a say in decisions. However, that requires some savings and some political perspective. I understand why someone who just struggles to pay their bills every month "thanks to" their corporate overlord (i.e. "wage slavery" as that is/was called) would not consider it a viable option. Organize with your fellow workers. Sabotage the company. Make your managers' lives miserable, but do it collectively ;)
- janto 5y agoOr create your own company. Sabotaging someone else's company and feeling entitled that they should give you money for your activity sounds like... theft?
- loceng 5y agoSabotage is arguably far worse than theft; would be glad to have this kind of unreasonable-malicious individual filtering themselves out of my company - and ironically they certainly are a supporting point for companies who want to monitor and control to catch stated malicious behaviour/sabotage; they clearly have resentment and won't be as successful themselves as otherwise because they're wanting to waste energy, perhaps energy from anger - but certainly that of resentment - rather than directing it to do better themselves, which doesn't include sabotage or wasting energy; that's a violent and self-harmful act IMO. Re: theft - they didn't mention theft in their comment (unless they edited it out; why not version control on HN?) but the problem I have with theft is that it allows thieves to gain resources that they didn't develop to earn themselves, that they don't yet deserve - giving them power they don't deserve nor have learned how to wield adequately.
- grecy 5y ago> You're not a soulless resource that can be used and tossed whenever your boss pleases Once healthcare is tied to employment, that is exactly what people are.
- loftyal 5y agoKind of ironic isn't it, the people against universal medicare are the same ones spouting "freedom", but infact universal medicare would give them more real individual freedom than any other bills sent to the Senate these days.
- concordDance 5y agoThe USA system is particularly broken. Just because healthcare is private doesn't mean it needs to be ruinously expensive, most other countries manage.
- loftyal 5y agoMost other countries provide universal health care, private health insurance is optional.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- beckman466 5y ago> Once healthcare is tied to employment, that is exactly what people are. Yep, and this marvelous US productivity hack by employers and lawmakers (/s) - of making affordable healthcare conditional to employment - is unfortunately growing around the world. Parallel to this move is the continued commodification of most other resources and relationships.
- lotsofpulp 5y agoIn the US, anyone can buy the same health insurance from healthcare.gov. However, if you are not self employed, then you will have to pay with post tax dollars as opposed to pretax dollars. Employers do pay a portion (usual 50% or more) of the health insurance premiums, but these days it is just another form of compensation, worth somewhere around $200 to $1,200 per family member per month (pretax). Before ACA, it was true there were cases you simply could not get health insurance without an employer, as you could be denied for a multitude of reasons.
- StreamBright 5y agoWorkers are minor annoyance for amazon. If they could do everything with robots they would. This is the tragedy of automation and robotics. As soon as it becomes an option there will be massive unemployment unless we figure out a better model.
- dmos62 5y agoAutomation is as much of a tragedy as 3/5 people not having to work in agriculture or not having to spend hours washing your clothes by hand. A job becoming unnecessary should be a good thing. If you become unnecessary, something is wrong, and not necessarily with you.
- howaboutnope 5y agoLet's see if people will also shallowly dismiss Stephen Hawking saying the exact same thing you just said. > If machines produce everything we need, the outcome will depend on how things are distributed. Everyone can enjoy a life of luxurious leisure if the machine-produced wealth is shared, or most people can end up miserably poor if the machine-owners successfully lobby against wealth redistribution. So far, the trend seems to be toward the second option, with technology driving ever-increasing inequality. -- Stephen Hawking, https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/3nyn5i/science_ama_series_stephen_hawking_ama_answers/cvsdmkv https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/3nyn5i/science_ama...
- treeman79 5y agoFarming was 97% of the population at one point. Then automation took over. Rough at the time for sure. But few would wish to go back.
- howaboutnope 5y agoThis isn't about automation separated from the world it is used in, this is about automation speeding up inequality that isn't just growing, but accelerating -- and the predictable outcome that those who exploit and don't share with people when they still kinda need them, will certainly not share once they no longer need them for anything whatsoever, and can kill them in vast numbers trivially. If it was already occasionally possible to get soldiers to do it, how much more so owithout pesky humans and their consciences getting in the way. > But few would wish to go back. What does that even mean? I would love to "go back" and deal with things by not just letting the masses starve while people in costumes play god and smell their own farts, which is exactly what they do today. I would LOVE to see see that space exploration and awesome inter-species music festivals we might have in 2021 if the last few millenia hadn't been such pathetic ass.
- kwhitefoot 5y agoProbably illegal here in Norway too. If not then I think would probably require the assent of the Norwegian Data Protection Authority (Datatilsynet).
- WhyNotHugo 5y agoWell, that's not the American view of things. It's clear that, in their super-capitalistic view, if they pay you a salary they own you for 8 hours a day. Property doesn't have rights, so neither do you. This has been clear for quite some time, but it's reaching exaggerated extremes in recent years. It's worrying how US companies are expanding so intensely into the EU as well.
- stickaquarius 5y agoMy employer in Germany (U.S. company with an incorporated branch in Germany) recently started using Deep Packet Inspection and is decrypting all SSL traffic. While they're not logging all keystrokes, they can read everything. Reading about this topic, it seems this is also not legal, especially when limited personal internet usage is allowed as well in the contract. What's the right way to approach this issue? I guess if someone brings this up, they'll just update contracts and say that personal internet usage is forbidden? It still feels like someone is watching you.
- yladiz 5y agoIf you have legal insurance, ask the lawyer to look into it and write a letter. This seems very illegal and a single letter from a lawyer will scare the company enough to stop it.
- BrandoElFollito 5y agoThey probably inspect the traffic for information security. Specifically to check if there is no hacking going on (suspicious data extraction, c&c calls etc)
- ciex 5y agoSystematic monitoring is always illegal in Germany, even if they forbid private internet use.
- ok_coo 5y agoWell, in the USA we are literally called Human Capital Stock. So, I would disagree that's the case here.