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But the catch is: all the incumbents already treated your data as if you were guilty until proven innocent. Apple’s transparency about that change may have led

But the catch is: all the incumbents already treated your data as if you were guilty until proven innocent. Apple’s transparency about that change may have led people to internalize that, but it’s been the de facto terms of most cloud relationships. What I personally don’t understand is why Apple didn’t come out with a different message: we’ve made your iPhone so secure that we’ll let it vouch for your behalf when it sends us data to store. We don’t want to see the data, and we won’t see any of it unless we find that lots of the photos you send us are fishy. Android could never contemplate this because they can’t trust the OS to send vouchers for the same photos it uploads, so instead they snoop on everything you send them. It seems like a much more win-win framing that emphasizes their strengths.

zepto 5y ago
I agree this is vastly better than what anyone else is doing, and you know I understand the technology. However, I don’t think any framing would have improved things. I think it was always going to feel wrong. I would prefer they don’t do this because it feels bad to be a suspect even in this abstract and in-practice harmless way. Having said that, having heard from people who have investigated how bad pedophile activity actually is, I can imagine being easily persuaded back in the other direction. I think thins is about the logic of evolutionary psychology, not the logic of cryptography. My guess is that between now and the October iPhone release we are going to see more media about the extent of the problem they are trying to solve. That is how Apple wins this.
- unityByFreedom 5y ago
  > Having said that, having heard from people who have investigated how bad pedophile activity actually is, I can imagine being easily persuaded back in the other direction. There are terrible things out there that we should seek to solve. They should not be solved by creating 1984 in the literal sense, and certainly not by the company that became famous for an advertisement based on that book [1]. Apple, take your own advice and Think Different [2]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtvjbmoDx-I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtvjbmoDx-I [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sMBhDv4sik https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sMBhDv4sik
  - zepto 5y ago
    > creating 1984 in the literal sense I take it you haven’t read 1984. When Craig Federighi straps a cage full of starving rats to my face, I’ll concede this point.
    - unityByFreedom 5y ago
      China has tiger chairs. Should we move closer to their big brother systems?
      - zepto 5y ago
        No but this has nothing to do with that. In case you missed it, I think this is probably a bad move. I just don’t think these arguments about back doors and creeping totalitarianism are either accurate or likely to persuade everyday users when they weigh them up against the grotesque nature of child exploitation.
        unityByFreedom 5y ago
        > I just don’t think these arguments about back doors and creeping totalitarianism are either accurate or likely to persuade everyday users when they weigh them up against the grotesque nature of child exploitation. Agree to disagree. This opens the door to something much worse in my opinion.
- shuckles 5y ago
  I don’t think I agree. If you think this boils down to instinct, do you think a story about coming together to save the next generation will work well on people cynical enough to see TLAs around every corner? At the very least, I feel like Apple should probably make a concession to the conspiracy minded so that they can bleach any offensive bits from their device and use them as offline-first DEFCON map viewing devices, or some such.
  - zepto 5y ago
    > do you think a story about coming together to save the next generation will work well on people cynical enough to see TLAs around every corner? Absolutely not. I don’t think they need to persuade people who are convinced of their iniquity. What they need is an environment in which those people look like they are arguing over how many dictatorships need to collude to detect anti-government photos and how this constitutes literal 1984, while Apple is announcing a way to deter horrific crimes against American children that they have seen on TV.
unityByFreedom 5y ago
> What I personally don’t understand is why Apple didn’t come out with a different message: we’ve made your iPhone so secure that we’ll let it vouch for your behalf when it sends us data to store. We don’t want to see the data, and we won’t see any of it unless we find that lots of the photos you send us are fishy. That is PR speak that would have landed worse in tech forums. I respect them more for not doing this. The core issue is this performs scans, without your approval, on your local device. Viruses already do that and it's something techies have always feared governments might impose. That private companies are apparently being strong-armed into doing it is concerning because it means the government is trying to circumvent the process of public discussion that is typically facilitated by proposing legislation.
- zepto 5y ago
  > without your approval This isn’t true. You can always turn off iCloud Photo Library and just store the photos locally or use a different cloud provider.
  - unityByFreedom 5y ago
    Let's not pretend anyone is really "opting in" on this feature.
    - zepto 5y ago
      Anyone who doesn’t like it can switch off iCloud Photo Library. I can imagine many people doing that in response to this news.
      - unityByFreedom 5y ago
        The fact that you can opt out for now does not set me at ease.
        zepto 5y ago
        Nor me. I will not opt out because I think there is no threat to me and I like iCloud photos. That doesn’t mean I like the presence of this mechanism.

zepto 5y ago

I agree this is vastly better than what anyone else is doing, and you know I understand the technology. However, I don’t think any framing would have improved things. I think it was always going to feel wrong. I would prefer they don’t do this because it feels bad to be a suspect even in this abstract and in-practice harmless way. Having said that, having heard from people who have investigated how bad pedophile activity actually is, I can imagine being easily persuaded back in the other direction. I think thins is about the logic of evolutionary psychology, not the logic of cryptography. My guess is that between now and the October iPhone release we are going to see more media about the extent of the problem they are trying to solve. That is how Apple wins this.

unityByFreedom 5y ago
> Having said that, having heard from people who have investigated how bad pedophile activity actually is, I can imagine being easily persuaded back in the other direction. There are terrible things out there that we should seek to solve. They should not be solved by creating 1984 in the literal sense, and certainly not by the company that became famous for an advertisement based on that book [1]. Apple, take your own advice and Think Different [2]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtvjbmoDx-I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtvjbmoDx-I [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sMBhDv4sik https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sMBhDv4sik
- zepto 5y ago
  > creating 1984 in the literal sense I take it you haven’t read 1984. When Craig Federighi straps a cage full of starving rats to my face, I’ll concede this point.
  - unityByFreedom 5y ago
    China has tiger chairs. Should we move closer to their big brother systems?
    - zepto 5y ago
      No but this has nothing to do with that. In case you missed it, I think this is probably a bad move. I just don’t think these arguments about back doors and creeping totalitarianism are either accurate or likely to persuade everyday users when they weigh them up against the grotesque nature of child exploitation.
      - unityByFreedom 5y ago
        > I just don’t think these arguments about back doors and creeping totalitarianism are either accurate or likely to persuade everyday users when they weigh them up against the grotesque nature of child exploitation. Agree to disagree. This opens the door to something much worse in my opinion.
shuckles 5y ago
I don’t think I agree. If you think this boils down to instinct, do you think a story about coming together to save the next generation will work well on people cynical enough to see TLAs around every corner? At the very least, I feel like Apple should probably make a concession to the conspiracy minded so that they can bleach any offensive bits from their device and use them as offline-first DEFCON map viewing devices, or some such.
- zepto 5y ago
  > do you think a story about coming together to save the next generation will work well on people cynical enough to see TLAs around every corner? Absolutely not. I don’t think they need to persuade people who are convinced of their iniquity. What they need is an environment in which those people look like they are arguing over how many dictatorships need to collude to detect anti-government photos and how this constitutes literal 1984, while Apple is announcing a way to deter horrific crimes against American children that they have seen on TV.

unityByFreedom 5y ago

> What I personally don’t understand is why Apple didn’t come out with a different message: we’ve made your iPhone so secure that we’ll let it vouch for your behalf when it sends us data to store. We don’t want to see the data, and we won’t see any of it unless we find that lots of the photos you send us are fishy. That is PR speak that would have landed worse in tech forums. I respect them more for not doing this. The core issue is this performs scans, without your approval, on your local device. Viruses already do that and it's something techies have always feared governments might impose. That private companies are apparently being strong-armed into doing it is concerning because it means the government is trying to circumvent the process of public discussion that is typically facilitated by proposing legislation.

zepto 5y ago
> without your approval This isn’t true. You can always turn off iCloud Photo Library and just store the photos locally or use a different cloud provider.
- unityByFreedom 5y ago
  Let's not pretend anyone is really "opting in" on this feature.
  - zepto 5y ago
    Anyone who doesn’t like it can switch off iCloud Photo Library. I can imagine many people doing that in response to this news.
    - unityByFreedom 5y ago
      The fact that you can opt out for now does not set me at ease.
      - zepto 5y ago
        Nor me. I will not opt out because I think there is no threat to me and I like iCloud photos. That doesn’t mean I like the presence of this mechanism.