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My take is that "enlightenment" is a real state the brain can be in, and it can be invoked by meditation, or even spontaneously in some cases. But that this sta

My take is that "enlightenment" is a real state the brain can be in, and it can be invoked by meditation, or even spontaneously in some cases. But that this state may not actually have the level of impact on human behavior as many think it should. In the west we seem to correlate "enlightenment" with some level of "perfection", but I think that's actually pretty far removed from what many eastern traditions consider it. This results in us having weird expectations about how somebody who is "enlightened" should behave. I think it's totally possible that Culadasa has had the experience of "enlightenment" (a certain state the brain can exist in). But it seems like this state may actually be morally neutral. There's a reason the Eightfold Path in Buddhism isn't just "meditate really good until you reach enlightenment".

carrolldunham 5y ago
The behavioural expectations are explicit in all the Buddhist traditions. You're also mixing up a temporary state with what's supposed to be an irreversible permanent change of nature. Of course, the notion that the rigors of virtue are just part of 'social conditioning' that a meditator will slough off is deliciously tempting to people want to have their cake and eat it too. "Freedom from desire but oh, should one happen to come up - hey why not act on it - not because I want to, just, randomly? haha. because nothing has essence right? no harm done haha."
- Trasmatta 5y ago
  My point wasn't "the West has it wrong, you have to dive into the Eastern traditions for the real answers". It was more, "it's really complicated in Eastern traditions already, and we've muddied the water even further by adding our own expectations and biases on top of that". So what I mean is that some people, like Culudasa, probably experienced a brain state that might be called "enlightenment" in some contexts. But either we've been way oversold what that actually means, or he only reached one of the lower "stages of awakening" and hadn't yet fully, and permanently, abandoned all the fetters. (I tend to think it's probably the former.)
  - loopz 5y ago
    There are many states, of brain and matter. None of them - none, behavioural concerns or even desires or not, have anything to do with enlightenment. It's even meaningless to appoint so and so enlightened. In fact, stating such displays the ignorance. No tradition have exclusive rights either. What we can do is point the direction, what it is not, etc., when someone is seeking realization.

carrolldunham 5y ago

The behavioural expectations are explicit in all the Buddhist traditions. You're also mixing up a temporary state with what's supposed to be an irreversible permanent change of nature. Of course, the notion that the rigors of virtue are just part of 'social conditioning' that a meditator will slough off is deliciously tempting to people want to have their cake and eat it too. "Freedom from desire but oh, should one happen to come up - hey why not act on it - not because I want to, just, randomly? haha. because nothing has essence right? no harm done haha."

Trasmatta 5y ago
My point wasn't "the West has it wrong, you have to dive into the Eastern traditions for the real answers". It was more, "it's really complicated in Eastern traditions already, and we've muddied the water even further by adding our own expectations and biases on top of that". So what I mean is that some people, like Culudasa, probably experienced a brain state that might be called "enlightenment" in some contexts. But either we've been way oversold what that actually means, or he only reached one of the lower "stages of awakening" and hadn't yet fully, and permanently, abandoned all the fetters. (I tend to think it's probably the former.)
- loopz 5y ago
  There are many states, of brain and matter. None of them - none, behavioural concerns or even desires or not, have anything to do with enlightenment. It's even meaningless to appoint so and so enlightened. In fact, stating such displays the ignorance. No tradition have exclusive rights either. What we can do is point the direction, what it is not, etc., when someone is seeking realization.