4 ms·

What’s not discussed in this Paper is how it won’t be used by third-party actors to falsely accuse someone. Does nobody remember the iCloud hack? What about ins

What’s not discussed in this Paper is how it won’t be used by third-party actors to falsely accuse someone. Does nobody remember the iCloud hack? What about instead of downloading Jennifer Lawrence’s photos, a hacker uploaded children to get someone falsely accused?

dogma1138 5y ago
Google, Microsoft and a bunch of other services already scan for CSAM materials, yet this hasn’t been an issue so far. In fact I can’t really find a single case when someone was framed like this, despite how easy it is to fill someone’s account with CSAM and call the cops/wait. I don’t like the privacy and property rights issues of this but the whole someone will use this to frame someone is quite BS.
- staticassertion 5y ago
  As I recall someone's neighbor once tried to frame them by downloading CSAM on their network and then calling the police or something like that.
- fuckcensorship 5y ago
  How would someone prove that they were framed by someone planting CSAM? Without evidence, how likely is it that they would be believed?
- underseacables 5y ago
  But the services you mentioned don’t do it on the device. The blind trust in Apple that everything will be ok is quite BS, and very naïve .
- Renaud 5y ago
  1) how would you know someone's being framed if it's not detected as such? in this case it just looks like the target had CSAM on their machine/account and they are found guilty, despite their objections, maybe because no-one really looked closely at the evidence, or it was planted well enough. 2) if it is detected as a plant. Would you know it? Would it fly above our radar? There is evidence this happens [1], some cases are quite high profile [2]. 3) This technique is already in use. Russia is allegedly using it to discredit opponents [3]. Do you think you would hear from it if it was done by secret services of any country to discredit or get rid of foreign targets or even some at home? 4) it's the ultimate weapon against foes and opponents. It's a dangerous one but I have to wonder how many estranged spouses get revenge planting evidence [4], or how many journalists or troublemakers have been the recipient of some carefully crafted planting. I mean, nearly anyone reading HN could do it sufficiently well to get someone in serious trouble, it's not really a technical issue so it's not hard to imagine it's being done. [1]: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/handyman-planted-child-porn-colleague-s-computer-2037439.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/handyman-planted... [2]: https://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/shaq-hit-with-lawsuit-for-attempting-to-plant-child-porn-on-former-employees-computer-6530360 https://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/shaq-hit-with-lawsuit-for... [3]: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/09/world/europe/vladimir-putin-russia-fake-news-hacking-cybersecurity.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/09/world/europe/vladimir-put... [4]: https://www.crimeonline.com/2019/07/04/wife-plants-child-porn-on-husbands-phone-falsely-accuses-him-of-raping-their-daughter-a-judge-gives-her-probation/ https://www.crimeonline.com/2019/07/04/wife-plants-child-por...
- nonbirithm 5y ago
  Here is one case which was allegedly caused by malware. Several people were arrested and subsequently acquitted. I would say that the opt-out preference on iPhones that by default uploads all photos to iCloud combined with a remote execution payload like Pegasus would render such an attack plausible. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Solon?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Solon?wprov=s...
azinman2 5y ago
How is that not already the case for Google, Facebook, Dropbox, Microsoft, and I'm sure countless others? Or are you just suggesting that now Apple gets added to this existing long list, and that's particularly notable?
thephyber 5y ago
> Does nobody remember the iCloud hack? The iCloud hack was a few hundred cases of spear phishing. How does your concern differ from physical access to the phone by an unauthorized user? I think the law is the problem. Simple possession of that type of content is criminalized, as opposed to requiring the traditional elements of a crime to prosecute it.

dogma1138 5y ago

Google, Microsoft and a bunch of other services already scan for CSAM materials, yet this hasn’t been an issue so far. In fact I can’t really find a single case when someone was framed like this, despite how easy it is to fill someone’s account with CSAM and call the cops/wait. I don’t like the privacy and property rights issues of this but the whole someone will use this to frame someone is quite BS.

staticassertion 5y ago
As I recall someone's neighbor once tried to frame them by downloading CSAM on their network and then calling the police or something like that.
fuckcensorship 5y ago
How would someone prove that they were framed by someone planting CSAM? Without evidence, how likely is it that they would be believed?
underseacables 5y ago
But the services you mentioned don’t do it on the device. The blind trust in Apple that everything will be ok is quite BS, and very naïve .
Renaud 5y ago
1) how would you know someone's being framed if it's not detected as such? in this case it just looks like the target had CSAM on their machine/account and they are found guilty, despite their objections, maybe because no-one really looked closely at the evidence, or it was planted well enough. 2) if it is detected as a plant. Would you know it? Would it fly above our radar? There is evidence this happens [1], some cases are quite high profile [2]. 3) This technique is already in use. Russia is allegedly using it to discredit opponents [3]. Do you think you would hear from it if it was done by secret services of any country to discredit or get rid of foreign targets or even some at home? 4) it's the ultimate weapon against foes and opponents. It's a dangerous one but I have to wonder how many estranged spouses get revenge planting evidence [4], or how many journalists or troublemakers have been the recipient of some carefully crafted planting. I mean, nearly anyone reading HN could do it sufficiently well to get someone in serious trouble, it's not really a technical issue so it's not hard to imagine it's being done. [1]: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/handyman-planted-child-porn-colleague-s-computer-2037439.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/handyman-planted... [2]: https://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/shaq-hit-with-lawsuit-for-attempting-to-plant-child-porn-on-former-employees-computer-6530360 https://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/shaq-hit-with-lawsuit-for... [3]: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/09/world/europe/vladimir-putin-russia-fake-news-hacking-cybersecurity.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/09/world/europe/vladimir-put... [4]: https://www.crimeonline.com/2019/07/04/wife-plants-child-porn-on-husbands-phone-falsely-accuses-him-of-raping-their-daughter-a-judge-gives-her-probation/ https://www.crimeonline.com/2019/07/04/wife-plants-child-por...
nonbirithm 5y ago
Here is one case which was allegedly caused by malware. Several people were arrested and subsequently acquitted. I would say that the opt-out preference on iPhones that by default uploads all photos to iCloud combined with a remote execution payload like Pegasus would render such an attack plausible. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Solon?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Solon?wprov=s...

azinman2 5y ago

How is that not already the case for Google, Facebook, Dropbox, Microsoft, and I'm sure countless others? Or are you just suggesting that now Apple gets added to this existing long list, and that's particularly notable?

thephyber 5y ago

> Does nobody remember the iCloud hack? The iCloud hack was a few hundred cases of spear phishing. How does your concern differ from physical access to the phone by an unauthorized user? I think the law is the problem. Simple possession of that type of content is criminalized, as opposed to requiring the traditional elements of a crime to prosecute it.