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This article misses the point completely. It was never about what they were looking for, it was that they were looking at all. The quiet part is, once they get

This article misses the point completely. It was never about what they were looking for, it was that they were looking at all. The quiet part is, once they get acceptance of the snooping using the bogeyman of the day, it will eventually encompass other behavior up to and including political dissent etc.

okamiueru 5y ago
There is also the issue that closed door arbitration of heinous crimes are the perfect tool to put away dissidents. A very convenient excuse to avoid proper checks and balances. "No, you cannot verify, because you aren't allowed to look at the illegal material that proves their guilt"
- hahajk 5y ago
  Is this actually true? If I was arrested for an image on my phone, would no one in the judge/jury team be allowed to see the image that was flagged? I understand it’s allegedly contraband, but if I were a judge I don’t think I’d take an algorithm’s word for it.
  - heavyset_go 5y ago
    > it’s allegedly contraband, but if I were a judge I don’t think I’d take an algorithm’s word for it. The prosecution can hire more expert witnesses with excessive credentials than you can, and they will explain how there's a one in one trillion possibility that the system is wrong, and that the defendant is assuredly a monster. Juries eat that up when it comes to bogus DNA, bite mark, fingerprint, or other forensic evidence claims. Most people think computers can't be wrong or biased, and people's perceptions of what can be deemed reasonable doubts or not seem to shift when computers are involved, or when smart, credentialed people tell them their reasonable doubts aren't reasonable at all because of that one in a trillion chance of the computers being wrong.
jsjohnst 5y ago
I agree. Further, is there any doubt that these “CSAM”² hash databases aren’t already shared between countries? Because if there was doubt, there shouldn’t be, because agencies do share across borders. ² - reason for the scare quotes is because I have first hand knowledge of non-CSAM content being in NCMEC’s database (most likely via data entry errors, but I can’t be for sure).
- belorn 5y ago
  Images of bonsai trees?
  - jsjohnst 5y ago
    > Images of bonsai trees? Ha! Come to think of it, I think that was one example. The main examples that came to memory (it’s been almost 8 years since I was involved) when discussing this last week were essentially extremely common photos (like the stock Windows XP background, among others).
deugo 5y ago
I think this is (quietly) already happening: https://www.reuters.com/technology/exclusive-facebook-tech-giants-target-manifestos-militias-database-2021-07-26/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/exclusive-facebook-tech-g... Instead of hashes looking for sexual abuse images, hashes look at signs of white supremacist behavior. Instead of reporting such racism or behavior to the government, it is shared with all the major tech companies, including AirBnB and Paypal. So, if Facebook deems you to be a political outcast, based on your conversations on their platform, you may find yourself without access to hotels or online payment platforms. The bogeyman of the day is the white supremacist, and coordinated snooping by big tech is the quiet part. > Over the next few months, the group will add attacker manifestos - often shared by sympathizers after white supremacist violence - and other publications and links flagged by U.N. initiative Tech Against Terrorism. It will use lists from intelligence-sharing group Five Eyes, adding URLs and PDFs from more groups, including the Proud Boys, the Three Percenters and neo-Nazis. > The firms, which include Twitter (TWTR.N) and Alphabet Inc's (GOOGL.O) YouTube, share "hashes," unique numerical representations of original pieces of content that have been removed from their services. Other platforms use these to identify the same content on their own sites in order to review or remove it. As a company to become part of the Global Internet Forum to Counter Terrorism, you have to pledge your support to expanding from terrorism towards all online extremism. If you can't accept that, they will still send a speaker to educate your company.
spoonjim 5y ago
And, just introducing this idea can make the concept real, even if Apple cancels this plan tomorrow. Country X could introduce a law saying “all companies that sell phones here must scan and report for these hashes” and based on recent trends, the companies will just roll over and say Uncle.

okamiueru 5y ago

There is also the issue that closed door arbitration of heinous crimes are the perfect tool to put away dissidents. A very convenient excuse to avoid proper checks and balances. "No, you cannot verify, because you aren't allowed to look at the illegal material that proves their guilt"

hahajk 5y ago
Is this actually true? If I was arrested for an image on my phone, would no one in the judge/jury team be allowed to see the image that was flagged? I understand it’s allegedly contraband, but if I were a judge I don’t think I’d take an algorithm’s word for it.
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  > it’s allegedly contraband, but if I were a judge I don’t think I’d take an algorithm’s word for it. The prosecution can hire more expert witnesses with excessive credentials than you can, and they will explain how there's a one in one trillion possibility that the system is wrong, and that the defendant is assuredly a monster. Juries eat that up when it comes to bogus DNA, bite mark, fingerprint, or other forensic evidence claims. Most people think computers can't be wrong or biased, and people's perceptions of what can be deemed reasonable doubts or not seem to shift when computers are involved, or when smart, credentialed people tell them their reasonable doubts aren't reasonable at all because of that one in a trillion chance of the computers being wrong.

jsjohnst 5y ago

I agree. Further, is there any doubt that these “CSAM”² hash databases aren’t already shared between countries? Because if there was doubt, there shouldn’t be, because agencies do share across borders. ² - reason for the scare quotes is because I have first hand knowledge of non-CSAM content being in NCMEC’s database (most likely via data entry errors, but I can’t be for sure).

belorn 5y ago
Images of bonsai trees?
- jsjohnst 5y ago
  > Images of bonsai trees? Ha! Come to think of it, I think that was one example. The main examples that came to memory (it’s been almost 8 years since I was involved) when discussing this last week were essentially extremely common photos (like the stock Windows XP background, among others).

deugo 5y ago

I think this is (quietly) already happening: https://www.reuters.com/technology/exclusive-facebook-tech-giants-target-manifestos-militias-database-2021-07-26/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/exclusive-facebook-tech-g... Instead of hashes looking for sexual abuse images, hashes look at signs of white supremacist behavior. Instead of reporting such racism or behavior to the government, it is shared with all the major tech companies, including AirBnB and Paypal. So, if Facebook deems you to be a political outcast, based on your conversations on their platform, you may find yourself without access to hotels or online payment platforms. The bogeyman of the day is the white supremacist, and coordinated snooping by big tech is the quiet part. > Over the next few months, the group will add attacker manifestos - often shared by sympathizers after white supremacist violence - and other publications and links flagged by U.N. initiative Tech Against Terrorism. It will use lists from intelligence-sharing group Five Eyes, adding URLs and PDFs from more groups, including the Proud Boys, the Three Percenters and neo-Nazis. > The firms, which include Twitter (TWTR.N) and Alphabet Inc's (GOOGL.O) YouTube, share "hashes," unique numerical representations of original pieces of content that have been removed from their services. Other platforms use these to identify the same content on their own sites in order to review or remove it. As a company to become part of the Global Internet Forum to Counter Terrorism, you have to pledge your support to expanding from terrorism towards all online extremism. If you can't accept that, they will still send a speaker to educate your company.

spoonjim 5y ago

And, just introducing this idea can make the concept real, even if Apple cancels this plan tomorrow. Country X could introduce a law saying “all companies that sell phones here must scan and report for these hashes” and based on recent trends, the companies will just roll over and say Uncle.