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Meh. The world turns. I spent a decade developing primarily in Java, and the last few years were really disappointing. The community splintered, the language an

Meh. The world turns. I spent a decade developing primarily in Java, and the last few years were really disappointing. The community splintered, the language and platform really lost any ability to maintain momentum. I might have been stoked about Java 7 three years ago (when it should have come out).

bethling 15y ago
I don't know if I agree. The Java language has floundered (I've been stuck coding in it for the last couple of years), but I think the platform/JVM has started becoming used more and more often for new + exciting language options. The new release should make implementing dynamic languages on top of the JVM easiser, and could open the doors for a lot of interesting options.
- davedx 15y ago
  I don't think I would say it's floundered. I came back to Java last year after 10 years of C++, and was really pleasantly surprised: Programming in Java now is a nice experience. I would say it has matured, not floundered.
  - bethling 15y ago
    I think it depends on the time frame you look at. I started in Java back w/ some of the pre 1.0 releases. Between then and now, it's come a really long way. Maybe I'm biased due to other new(er) languages becoming mainstream. But it feels like Java (as a language) has fallen behind as other Languages adopt new features that cater to different/modern techniques. Java won't ever be cutting edge (and given the types of applications that are built with it, some stability/maturity makes a lot of sense), but look at the advances that C# has made since 1.5/1.6 has been out. It wasn't like C++ pre C+11 -it didn't take a decade or soto catch up with the rest of the programming world, but you can see the its size slowing its advancement down. I want to like programming in Java again (I'm not saying it's bad, or it's a mistake) - for a long time it was my go-to language for when I play with ideas. But for now it's just a way to pay the bills while I try to figure out what I want to do/make/build.
  - eropple 15y ago
    You're comparing one circle of hell to a deeper circle of hell, though. The comparison isn't Java to C++. It's Java to C#, Scala, even Python or Ruby. And against C# and Scala in particular, Java does very poorly.
    - cnlwsu 15y ago
      By very poorly I would guess it would depend on how your comparing them. In my experience working with Java, C#, Scala, Python and Ruby all of them were fantastic. The only time I have ever considered a language a "deeper circle of hell" was with (large team) php and perl projects.
  - killedbydeath 15y ago
    You must be coming from a different C++ background. I had to program in Java for a couple years after 10 years of C++/Qt and was unpleasantly surprised. Java manages to be slower and more verbose/less powerful than C++.
    - davedx 15y ago
      I went from a games programming (C++) career, to Android, to enterprise Java. I admit that enterprise Java can be pretty hideous, but I think in most cases the bloat/slowness isn't caused by the language there. As far as Android is concerned, I co-wrote and optimised a skinning animation system in Java. The bottleneck ended up being things like fill-rates and GPU calculations, not Java.
bretthoerner 15y ago
Keep in mind this is JDK 7 (the JVM, libraries, tools), it's not only a Java The Language update.
speckledjim 15y ago
> The community splintered, the language and platform really lost any ability to maintain momentum. This is the mindset I've never understood. Do you stop using a hammer to bang in nails because the hammer "community" has splintered, or the development of hammers has stagnated? No, you still use it to fulfill a job it solves.
- puredanger 15y ago
  That's true. Unless someone builds a lighter, more accurate hammer in the meantime.
- pmr_ 15y ago
  And all just because the metaphor lacks (here more than elsewhere). Using a tool also means becoming more proficient in it and this is similar to an investment. If you don't expect anything of significance to come out of the movement associated with your language it is hard for the working programmer to enjoy developing in it any more. Here the fundamental difference to hammers becomes clear: Hammers don't evolve and have no complex ecosystem associated while programming languages do.
- famousactress 15y ago
  I don't think this is a valid analogy. The language/tools/support/ability-to-hire-developers are all a fluid ever-changing thing. Hammers aren't. Take this post.. people are excited about updates. I'm just saying the updates are kind of too little too late for me.
  - speckledjim 15y ago
    Well, people want different things. I just want the hammer. New language features are all fun, but unless they actually result in faster execution, or allow you to do things you could not do before, they're only use is to make some developers happy, which I don't think is particularly important. It looks like there's some real solid good APIs here though which is great to see. At first thought I imagined it'd just be useless pandering to developers like "You can now do closures or first class functions" or something equally useless.

bethling 15y ago

I don't know if I agree. The Java language has floundered (I've been stuck coding in it for the last couple of years), but I think the platform/JVM has started becoming used more and more often for new + exciting language options. The new release should make implementing dynamic languages on top of the JVM easiser, and could open the doors for a lot of interesting options.

davedx 15y ago
I don't think I would say it's floundered. I came back to Java last year after 10 years of C++, and was really pleasantly surprised: Programming in Java now is a nice experience. I would say it has matured, not floundered.
- bethling 15y ago
  I think it depends on the time frame you look at. I started in Java back w/ some of the pre 1.0 releases. Between then and now, it's come a really long way. Maybe I'm biased due to other new(er) languages becoming mainstream. But it feels like Java (as a language) has fallen behind as other Languages adopt new features that cater to different/modern techniques. Java won't ever be cutting edge (and given the types of applications that are built with it, some stability/maturity makes a lot of sense), but look at the advances that C# has made since 1.5/1.6 has been out. It wasn't like C++ pre C+11 -it didn't take a decade or soto catch up with the rest of the programming world, but you can see the its size slowing its advancement down. I want to like programming in Java again (I'm not saying it's bad, or it's a mistake) - for a long time it was my go-to language for when I play with ideas. But for now it's just a way to pay the bills while I try to figure out what I want to do/make/build.
- eropple 15y ago
  You're comparing one circle of hell to a deeper circle of hell, though. The comparison isn't Java to C++. It's Java to C#, Scala, even Python or Ruby. And against C# and Scala in particular, Java does very poorly.
  - cnlwsu 15y ago
    By very poorly I would guess it would depend on how your comparing them. In my experience working with Java, C#, Scala, Python and Ruby all of them were fantastic. The only time I have ever considered a language a "deeper circle of hell" was with (large team) php and perl projects.
- killedbydeath 15y ago
  You must be coming from a different C++ background. I had to program in Java for a couple years after 10 years of C++/Qt and was unpleasantly surprised. Java manages to be slower and more verbose/less powerful than C++.
  - davedx 15y ago
    I went from a games programming (C++) career, to Android, to enterprise Java. I admit that enterprise Java can be pretty hideous, but I think in most cases the bloat/slowness isn't caused by the language there. As far as Android is concerned, I co-wrote and optimised a skinning animation system in Java. The bottleneck ended up being things like fill-rates and GPU calculations, not Java.

bretthoerner 15y ago

Keep in mind this is JDK 7 (the JVM, libraries, tools), it's not only a Java The Language update.

speckledjim 15y ago

> The community splintered, the language and platform really lost any ability to maintain momentum. This is the mindset I've never understood. Do you stop using a hammer to bang in nails because the hammer "community" has splintered, or the development of hammers has stagnated? No, you still use it to fulfill a job it solves.

puredanger 15y ago
That's true. Unless someone builds a lighter, more accurate hammer in the meantime.
pmr_ 15y ago
And all just because the metaphor lacks (here more than elsewhere). Using a tool also means becoming more proficient in it and this is similar to an investment. If you don't expect anything of significance to come out of the movement associated with your language it is hard for the working programmer to enjoy developing in it any more. Here the fundamental difference to hammers becomes clear: Hammers don't evolve and have no complex ecosystem associated while programming languages do.
famousactress 15y ago
I don't think this is a valid analogy. The language/tools/support/ability-to-hire-developers are all a fluid ever-changing thing. Hammers aren't. Take this post.. people are excited about updates. I'm just saying the updates are kind of too little too late for me.
- speckledjim 15y ago
  Well, people want different things. I just want the hammer. New language features are all fun, but unless they actually result in faster execution, or allow you to do things you could not do before, they're only use is to make some developers happy, which I don't think is particularly important. It looks like there's some real solid good APIs here though which is great to see. At first thought I imagined it'd just be useless pandering to developers like "You can now do closures or first class functions" or something equally useless.