3 ms·

If you've been programming for years and can't get an entry level job, it might be that your presentation skills / communication skills are the weak link. Might

If you've been programming for years and can't get an entry level job, it might be that your presentation skills / communication skills are the weak link. Might be worth doing a mock interview with a professional whose job it is to help you get a job (you may have to pay them for their time) to make sure there's nothing obviously wrong with the way you are presenting yourself. As far as react goes, have you done work on front-end only or back-end as well? Do you have experience with databases and writing SQL? Getting a full-stack engineer role often requires less 'know this exact framework/language' if you can do some simple technical screens online where you can select from multiple languages or in-person via pseudocode. When you say you can't get a job doing it, how many positions did you apply to? Even for a competitive candidate with a degree, you might have to send out 50 applications to get in pipeline with 10-15, ultimately end up with 2-3 offers. Last, what country are you from?

brailsafe 5y ago
I don't seem to have too much of an issue speaking with people, simply based on how comfortable the conversation usually is and proceeding to next steps, but it could be a weaker signal than I think and so I'll certainly consider it. As well, I've been exploring fullstack positions too, only just recently though. I think I'd be capable in those respects. I've definitely sent out (conservatively) beyond 75 applications and participated in 25-60 interviews (off the top of my head) depending on what you consider an interview to be. I'd say I have no problem getting into some sort of pipeline, but in terms of participation in interview processes, most now start (some not even speaking to you first) with some hour to 3 hour hackerrank test. It's not feasible to increase my coverage that way. I'm in the Canadian market, with a little exposure to remote jobs in the U.S and elsewhere.
- Spooky23 5y ago
  Look for a job in public sector to get some paid experience. They are always behind the curve on stuff like interview practices and you won’t find the stupid testing bullshit. Either you’ll like it and stay or can build relationships with contractors or others and get referrals or other opportunities. Personally, i think front end web work sucks, but I’m more of a systems programmer that ended up in a sysadmin+engineer role before SRE was a thing.
  - brailsafe 5y ago
    I made it seem probably like I have no paid experience, but in reality my resume is just spotty, partly for the same reason I'm asking the question. I have about 4 years paid work on specifically frontend, and do find it awfully boring these days, then about 2-6 years doing other things like python, php, and sysadmin type work over about 10 years since my first paid developer type position. I've lost a few jobs, usually as a result of finding myself in less than ideal circumstances and burning out like hell. It becomes a self-perpetuating circumstance that's proving to be generally very difficult to buuld a career with. I really enjoy, and am capable at programming. I am a programmer and will always be, but I suppose it's an identity crisis to be faced with no ability to put it to use and find something else.
- readonthegoapp 5y ago
  i would look to 10x that number of applications, minimum, within the next seven days, with a good mix of targeted (cover letters) vs. spray-and-pray. i mean, 75? i do that in a day. half a day. not every day, but sometimes. especially when i'm focussed. i think there are certain truisms about the job market that cut across all sorts of lines. * it's finicky - you're hot one day, the next day you are trash * it's cruel * it's humilitating and degrading and etc. * it takes work to find work. * it takes a lot of work to find decent work. * it takes insane amts of work to find good work. if you're actually getting interviews and not closing on anything, and you're actually technically proficient, i suspect you're losing the jobs b/c of non-expertise-related reasons. you could be black. old. a woman. gay. you might wear the wrong color. you might correct your interviewer. etc. all sorts of reasons that you can't really control. or... you could be an asshole. act entitled/disinterested. haven't prepared. have a shitty attitude. not praise the people/company enough. etc. i think it's great that you know you want to do react. i'd double-down on that, keep becoming more of a react expert, start participating in _anything_ react-related - open source, making money, volunteer teaching, whatever. and when you talk to recruiters, ask them what you need to do to be more marketable. often they'll just say, "ok, i need you to add these five things to your resume" -- so you can do it or not, but once in a while you can get an honest-ish assessment. you have to convince them that you're not gonna cry like a little baby when you ask them for honest feedback -- but they'll give it to you. i'm guessing you don't have money for fake interviews, but if you do, that might be worth a go. in my recent search i was offered high level architect role and turned down for entry level support role, so you cna't really go looking for deep answers if you want to stay sane, imo. at least if you're in Cannuck-ville, you still have healthcare. lucky bastard. if you're resume spotty, you sometimes have to sidestep a bit -- so maybe look at dev-adjacent roles. - tech support - dev evangelist - code teacher/trainer - tech documentation in terms of taking tests, i would not do them. my general rule - with an occasional exception - is i make the company spend the same amount of time i'm spending. so i'll whiteboard with them. i'll do any kind of tech screen on the phone. but tests? not likely. i did my aws architect associate cert in part to stand out but also in part b/c i wanted to get better and in part b/c i was just interested in the material. i don't think it's helped at all, but i also don't think it's hurt. if anything it leads to too many architecture-type roles being thrown my way. point is - i dig certs, at a minimum, because they help you get demonstrably better at some skill, they boost your confidence, and a bunch of other things like help building camraderie with others, generated interest from recruiters and employers, helps you do your job better, etc. so i see no real reason to stay away from hacker rank and the others if you're using them to tighten up your game. anyways, good luck. react is a beast. i'm sure others have mentioned, but having some simple-ish, signature react app (or apps) deployed with source on github, i would think, would _probably_ be the absolute minimum i would expect a person to have if i was going to hire them for a react position. i can't speak for anybody else - i only hire contractors on upwork and similar to build web apps for me - but i could see how a hiring manager would want to be able to look at your code and quickly see if you're full of shit or not, if you have any genuine interest in react/tech/coding, etc. not sure you can tell them from a repo/etc., but...you prob can, is my guess. and even if you can't, i suspect hiring managers think you can.
Nextgrid 5y ago
A lot of companies use leetcode-style tests as the first step which means you can’t even talk to a human beforehand and leverage your soft skills to get ahead.

brailsafe 5y ago

I don't seem to have too much of an issue speaking with people, simply based on how comfortable the conversation usually is and proceeding to next steps, but it could be a weaker signal than I think and so I'll certainly consider it. As well, I've been exploring fullstack positions too, only just recently though. I think I'd be capable in those respects. I've definitely sent out (conservatively) beyond 75 applications and participated in 25-60 interviews (off the top of my head) depending on what you consider an interview to be. I'd say I have no problem getting into some sort of pipeline, but in terms of participation in interview processes, most now start (some not even speaking to you first) with some hour to 3 hour hackerrank test. It's not feasible to increase my coverage that way. I'm in the Canadian market, with a little exposure to remote jobs in the U.S and elsewhere.

Spooky23 5y ago
Look for a job in public sector to get some paid experience. They are always behind the curve on stuff like interview practices and you won’t find the stupid testing bullshit. Either you’ll like it and stay or can build relationships with contractors or others and get referrals or other opportunities. Personally, i think front end web work sucks, but I’m more of a systems programmer that ended up in a sysadmin+engineer role before SRE was a thing.
- brailsafe 5y ago
  I made it seem probably like I have no paid experience, but in reality my resume is just spotty, partly for the same reason I'm asking the question. I have about 4 years paid work on specifically frontend, and do find it awfully boring these days, then about 2-6 years doing other things like python, php, and sysadmin type work over about 10 years since my first paid developer type position. I've lost a few jobs, usually as a result of finding myself in less than ideal circumstances and burning out like hell. It becomes a self-perpetuating circumstance that's proving to be generally very difficult to buuld a career with. I really enjoy, and am capable at programming. I am a programmer and will always be, but I suppose it's an identity crisis to be faced with no ability to put it to use and find something else.
readonthegoapp 5y ago
i would look to 10x that number of applications, minimum, within the next seven days, with a good mix of targeted (cover letters) vs. spray-and-pray. i mean, 75? i do that in a day. half a day. not every day, but sometimes. especially when i'm focussed. i think there are certain truisms about the job market that cut across all sorts of lines. * it's finicky - you're hot one day, the next day you are trash * it's cruel * it's humilitating and degrading and etc. * it takes work to find work. * it takes a lot of work to find decent work. * it takes insane amts of work to find good work. if you're actually getting interviews and not closing on anything, and you're actually technically proficient, i suspect you're losing the jobs b/c of non-expertise-related reasons. you could be black. old. a woman. gay. you might wear the wrong color. you might correct your interviewer. etc. all sorts of reasons that you can't really control. or... you could be an asshole. act entitled/disinterested. haven't prepared. have a shitty attitude. not praise the people/company enough. etc. i think it's great that you know you want to do react. i'd double-down on that, keep becoming more of a react expert, start participating in _anything_ react-related - open source, making money, volunteer teaching, whatever. and when you talk to recruiters, ask them what you need to do to be more marketable. often they'll just say, "ok, i need you to add these five things to your resume" -- so you can do it or not, but once in a while you can get an honest-ish assessment. you have to convince them that you're not gonna cry like a little baby when you ask them for honest feedback -- but they'll give it to you. i'm guessing you don't have money for fake interviews, but if you do, that might be worth a go. in my recent search i was offered high level architect role and turned down for entry level support role, so you cna't really go looking for deep answers if you want to stay sane, imo. at least if you're in Cannuck-ville, you still have healthcare. lucky bastard. if you're resume spotty, you sometimes have to sidestep a bit -- so maybe look at dev-adjacent roles. - tech support - dev evangelist - code teacher/trainer - tech documentation in terms of taking tests, i would not do them. my general rule - with an occasional exception - is i make the company spend the same amount of time i'm spending. so i'll whiteboard with them. i'll do any kind of tech screen on the phone. but tests? not likely. i did my aws architect associate cert in part to stand out but also in part b/c i wanted to get better and in part b/c i was just interested in the material. i don't think it's helped at all, but i also don't think it's hurt. if anything it leads to too many architecture-type roles being thrown my way. point is - i dig certs, at a minimum, because they help you get demonstrably better at some skill, they boost your confidence, and a bunch of other things like help building camraderie with others, generated interest from recruiters and employers, helps you do your job better, etc. so i see no real reason to stay away from hacker rank and the others if you're using them to tighten up your game. anyways, good luck. react is a beast. i'm sure others have mentioned, but having some simple-ish, signature react app (or apps) deployed with source on github, i would think, would _probably_ be the absolute minimum i would expect a person to have if i was going to hire them for a react position. i can't speak for anybody else - i only hire contractors on upwork and similar to build web apps for me - but i could see how a hiring manager would want to be able to look at your code and quickly see if you're full of shit or not, if you have any genuine interest in react/tech/coding, etc. not sure you can tell them from a repo/etc., but...you prob can, is my guess. and even if you can't, i suspect hiring managers think you can.

Nextgrid 5y ago

A lot of companies use leetcode-style tests as the first step which means you can’t even talk to a human beforehand and leverage your soft skills to get ahead.