5 ms·

What are these obstacles? Employers are dying to hire female programmers. Universities are dying for females to enter CS programs. Right now, a women that sets

by ryandvm 15y ago

What are these obstacles? Employers are dying to hire female programmers. Universities are dying for females to enter CS programs. Right now, a women that sets her mind on programming has an easier chance of landing a job than any given guy. Basically, women just aren't interested. I'm not sure it's an obstacle. Why aren't we just as concerned that there are far fewer male hairdressers than female?

cheez 15y ago
You have ignored the 18 years leading up to the university. Infants: Pink clothes (ok, no biggie) Toddler: dolls, playing mommy and dressup Preschool: more of toddler, perhaps getting into TV now. Oh look, none of the women on TV are into science or tech. Maybe I shouldn't be either. School: Come on Carly, let's play with dolls. But I wanna play on the computer. LOSER. Teenager: What kind of a nerd plays with electronics and gadgets, lets go shopping! So society is completely geared towards beating it out of them. As the father of a pre-teen who has probably solved more software bugs than most her age and is deeply into robotics, it is a constant, constant battle even though she loves the field. Let's not forget all the aunties, grandmas and neighbours who don't encourage tech curiosity for girls. "Hey, here's another shitty fashion toy for your birthday" meanwhile, the girl is thinking "I really wanted a gizmo... oh well." Even though dad specifically sent around suggestions for the next robot she wants to build. Your universities can want females all they want, but society... I want to punch it sometimes. Edit: I should mention that TV is getting a little better with this. There are a couple of female leads in shows that are technically oriented.
- dpark 15y ago
  Society does push both genders toward and away from particular careers; look at the imbalance in nurses or teachers for the other side. However, this has nothing to do with sexism in the workplace. It's not sexism in the software industry that causes society to push women away from the sciences. (That's not to say that sexism doesn't exist in the software industry or that it's not a problem.)
  - cheez 15y ago
    The guy I was replying to said: > Basically, women just aren't interested. I'm not sure it's an obstacle. I was pointing out that even if they are interested in science or computers, the deck is stacked against them from the time they are born.
    - dpark 15y ago
      Fair enough. I took his statement to refer to obstacles in the university and job setting. Perhaps that's not what he meant, though.
- Perceval 15y ago
  As I recall from my own primary and secondary education, being a nerd who likes reading about science and math, and spends most of his time after school on his computer is not exactly encouraged by society either. Your parents want to cut down on your time spent in front of the computer, your dad wants you to go outside and play sports, the jocks at school give you shit, the girls pay no attention to you. Girls interested in computers may be portrayed as losers and antisocial and outcasts, but guys interested in computers have been portrayed as and treated by society as antisocial outcast losers for as long as there has been such a thing as a computer geek. Given that amount of social pressure and shaming and exclusion faced by young computer nerds, one wonders why anyone would go into tech. But more boys do and fewer girls do.
  - cheez 15y ago
    You're right, but I think girls have an even less incentive. Based on my experience as a father of a girl.
  - thricedotted 15y ago
    Here's my view on this as a young female computer nerd: even with all the negative stereotypes attached to the male computer nerd, the fact remains that (a) he is typically male, and (b) he is not the only one of his ilk. Let's consider the perfectly realistic scenario where society has only just recently realized that women are good for more than making sandwiches and childbearing, and can are capable of doing professional jobs as well as any man. Thanks, society! But since this change just happened recently, it is not unreasonable for there to still be fields that are male-dominated, despite the fact that women are just as able to work successfully in these fields. This is what gives us (a). However, now that the floodgates have opened, women would really like to get into tech! But first, there's everything that cheez mentioned -- society's subtle socialization of women into their proper gender role. Boys are expected to tinker with and possibly break their toys, girls should be combing doll hair. And later, the boys who are nerds almost always find a nerd clique...which is almost entirely comprised of other boys. And the girl who wants to bond with somebody over her nerddom? All the boys are scared of her, for she is GIRL, a separate and incomprehensible breed from BOY. And there's condition (b). Personal anecdote time: all of my friends (which is stretching it) in high school were guys because the other girls at my school thought computers and programming and video games were "a guy thing". and even among this group, I only had one who truly respected me (who brought me into the circle in the first place) -- to the rest, I was the token female to be awkward around and bounce sexist jokes off of. During that time, I was a huge tomboy and a huge jerk -- not because I don't like doing typically femme-y things, like wearing makeup and dresses, but because I felt like I'd be more accepted if I wore guy clothes and made dick jokes and, yes, sometimes even objectified women and acted homophobic (but only for men, because lesbians are hot, har har) for the sake of humor. Even being more "guy-like", though, never really earned me any respect -- even if I laughed at their jokes about "dumb bitches" and made my own, the fact remained that I was still born without a penis and could therefore never really relate. It was only after I got to college that I was able to recognize my disgusting attitude for what it was and realize that it was possible to be both femme and a CS major, though that would have earned me no love from most of my HS "friends". tldr, men do have to overcome the barrier of being socialized to like sports and fast cars and what-have-you, but once they do, they've at least found more of their kind. Women, on the other hand, face that barrier two-fold -- both from outside and within the community, and that really, really sucks. But I'm so glad that this conversation is happening, because I really do think that making the tech industry more welcoming to women is important -- and if it turns out that you're right, that at the end of the day more boys and few girls go into tech anyway, at least we're still a kinder, better, more accepting community. What do we have to lose from that?
- romey 15y ago
  I could say the same things (in general) about guys who are deeply interested in science and tech: Toddler/Preschool: Gifts of balls, sports cards, action figures, etc. School/Teenager: Come on bro, get off the computer and play some sportsball! Don't be a nerd! Come on bro, lets watch football and drink beer! Even on TV, when they show engineers and scientists, they are almost never cool or desirable. Basically, I seriously doubt that anyone becomes an engineer because it's the "cool" thing to do, or in any way socially optimal; it seems to be based more on a child's innate proclivities, and a lot to do with the type of parents they have. To me, this seems to be the same problem that has many asking "Why aren't there more black engineers?" Well, in many cases, it's simply because the parents of kids who would become engineers don't have the resource, interest, or knowledge of how to foster these abilities. I applaud you on encouraging your daughter's interests. With more parents like you, we'll surely see the a more diverse field in the future.
solipsist 15y ago
Why aren't we just as concerned that there are far fewer male hairdressers than female? CS jobs are held in higher esteem in society than hair dressing jobs. They pay more and require more experience.
solipsist 15y ago
Why aren't we just as concerned that there are far fewer male hairdressers than female CS jobs are held in higher esteem than hair dressing jobs. They pay more and require more experience.
solipsist 15y ago
Why aren't we just as concerned that there are far fewer male hairdressers than female CS jobs are held in higher esteem than hair dressing jobs. They pay more and require more experience.

by ryandvm 15y ago

cheez 15y ago

You have ignored the 18 years leading up to the university. Infants: Pink clothes (ok, no biggie) Toddler: dolls, playing mommy and dressup Preschool: more of toddler, perhaps getting into TV now. Oh look, none of the women on TV are into science or tech. Maybe I shouldn't be either. School: Come on Carly, let's play with dolls. But I wanna play on the computer. LOSER. Teenager: What kind of a nerd plays with electronics and gadgets, lets go shopping! So society is completely geared towards beating it out of them. As the father of a pre-teen who has probably solved more software bugs than most her age and is deeply into robotics, it is a constant, constant battle even though she loves the field. Let's not forget all the aunties, grandmas and neighbours who don't encourage tech curiosity for girls. "Hey, here's another shitty fashion toy for your birthday" meanwhile, the girl is thinking "I really wanted a gizmo... oh well." Even though dad specifically sent around suggestions for the next robot she wants to build. Your universities can want females all they want, but society... I want to punch it sometimes. Edit: I should mention that TV is getting a little better with this. There are a couple of female leads in shows that are technically oriented.

dpark 15y ago
Society does push both genders toward and away from particular careers; look at the imbalance in nurses or teachers for the other side. However, this has nothing to do with sexism in the workplace. It's not sexism in the software industry that causes society to push women away from the sciences. (That's not to say that sexism doesn't exist in the software industry or that it's not a problem.)
- cheez 15y ago
  The guy I was replying to said: > Basically, women just aren't interested. I'm not sure it's an obstacle. I was pointing out that even if they are interested in science or computers, the deck is stacked against them from the time they are born.
  - dpark 15y ago
    Fair enough. I took his statement to refer to obstacles in the university and job setting. Perhaps that's not what he meant, though.
Perceval 15y ago
As I recall from my own primary and secondary education, being a nerd who likes reading about science and math, and spends most of his time after school on his computer is not exactly encouraged by society either. Your parents want to cut down on your time spent in front of the computer, your dad wants you to go outside and play sports, the jocks at school give you shit, the girls pay no attention to you. Girls interested in computers may be portrayed as losers and antisocial and outcasts, but guys interested in computers have been portrayed as and treated by society as antisocial outcast losers for as long as there has been such a thing as a computer geek. Given that amount of social pressure and shaming and exclusion faced by young computer nerds, one wonders why anyone would go into tech. But more boys do and fewer girls do.
- cheez 15y ago
  You're right, but I think girls have an even less incentive. Based on my experience as a father of a girl.
- thricedotted 15y ago
  Here's my view on this as a young female computer nerd: even with all the negative stereotypes attached to the male computer nerd, the fact remains that (a) he is typically male, and (b) he is not the only one of his ilk. Let's consider the perfectly realistic scenario where society has only just recently realized that women are good for more than making sandwiches and childbearing, and can are capable of doing professional jobs as well as any man. Thanks, society! But since this change just happened recently, it is not unreasonable for there to still be fields that are male-dominated, despite the fact that women are just as able to work successfully in these fields. This is what gives us (a). However, now that the floodgates have opened, women would really like to get into tech! But first, there's everything that cheez mentioned -- society's subtle socialization of women into their proper gender role. Boys are expected to tinker with and possibly break their toys, girls should be combing doll hair. And later, the boys who are nerds almost always find a nerd clique...which is almost entirely comprised of other boys. And the girl who wants to bond with somebody over her nerddom? All the boys are scared of her, for she is GIRL, a separate and incomprehensible breed from BOY. And there's condition (b). Personal anecdote time: all of my friends (which is stretching it) in high school were guys because the other girls at my school thought computers and programming and video games were "a guy thing". and even among this group, I only had one who truly respected me (who brought me into the circle in the first place) -- to the rest, I was the token female to be awkward around and bounce sexist jokes off of. During that time, I was a huge tomboy and a huge jerk -- not because I don't like doing typically femme-y things, like wearing makeup and dresses, but because I felt like I'd be more accepted if I wore guy clothes and made dick jokes and, yes, sometimes even objectified women and acted homophobic (but only for men, because lesbians are hot, har har) for the sake of humor. Even being more "guy-like", though, never really earned me any respect -- even if I laughed at their jokes about "dumb bitches" and made my own, the fact remained that I was still born without a penis and could therefore never really relate. It was only after I got to college that I was able to recognize my disgusting attitude for what it was and realize that it was possible to be both femme and a CS major, though that would have earned me no love from most of my HS "friends". tldr, men do have to overcome the barrier of being socialized to like sports and fast cars and what-have-you, but once they do, they've at least found more of their kind. Women, on the other hand, face that barrier two-fold -- both from outside and within the community, and that really, really sucks. But I'm so glad that this conversation is happening, because I really do think that making the tech industry more welcoming to women is important -- and if it turns out that you're right, that at the end of the day more boys and few girls go into tech anyway, at least we're still a kinder, better, more accepting community. What do we have to lose from that?
romey 15y ago
I could say the same things (in general) about guys who are deeply interested in science and tech: Toddler/Preschool: Gifts of balls, sports cards, action figures, etc. School/Teenager: Come on bro, get off the computer and play some sportsball! Don't be a nerd! Come on bro, lets watch football and drink beer! Even on TV, when they show engineers and scientists, they are almost never cool or desirable. Basically, I seriously doubt that anyone becomes an engineer because it's the "cool" thing to do, or in any way socially optimal; it seems to be based more on a child's innate proclivities, and a lot to do with the type of parents they have. To me, this seems to be the same problem that has many asking "Why aren't there more black engineers?" Well, in many cases, it's simply because the parents of kids who would become engineers don't have the resource, interest, or knowledge of how to foster these abilities. I applaud you on encouraging your daughter's interests. With more parents like you, we'll surely see the a more diverse field in the future.

solipsist 15y ago

Why aren't we just as concerned that there are far fewer male hairdressers than female? CS jobs are held in higher esteem in society than hair dressing jobs. They pay more and require more experience.

solipsist 15y ago

Why aren't we just as concerned that there are far fewer male hairdressers than female CS jobs are held in higher esteem than hair dressing jobs. They pay more and require more experience.

solipsist 15y ago

Why aren't we just as concerned that there are far fewer male hairdressers than female CS jobs are held in higher esteem than hair dressing jobs. They pay more and require more experience.