5 ms·

To be honest the only way we will ever know is if the chinese would share the genomes of the viruses they stored in their lab, but who would trust them to do th

by cm2187 5y ago

To be honest the only way we will ever know is if the chinese would share the genomes of the viruses they stored in their lab, but who would trust them to do that? The express drive-by the WHO did in china served absolutely no purpose. I am ready to bet that all samples have been destroyed and the staff briefed (warned). I would even suspect the samples have not even been analysed by the Chinese themselves as it is better to not know than running the risk of some technician leaking such damaging information (and who would trust the Chinese authorities whatever they say anyway). So my money is on “we will never know”. But like others, I have strong suspicions. It starts by an improbable coincidence (pandemic starting at the doorstep of a lab). The Chinese have acted guilty from the outset, by lying about the virus, arresting doctors, not allowing any investigation, and pushing crazy alternative theories.

vanattab 5y ago
>The express drive-by the WHO did in china served absolutely no purpose. I served it's purpose perfectly! It allowed China to pretend that an investigation was done.
JPKab 5y ago
To add to your point, it was a chain of improbable coincidences: Pandemic starting at the doorstep of a lab (that is not located in remotely close proximity to the Yunnan caves where the previous SARS viruses were originating from) Previous SARS virus outbreaks (SARS1 and MERS) had zoonotic reservoirs identified in months with dramatically fewer resources, but coincidentally, with vast resources and global efforts, no zoonotic reservoir identified for this virus. Previous SARS virus outbreaks showed a gradual evolution of a virus to progressively becoming more infectious to humans, and equivalent genetic changes in the virus that can be traced. This one started out as highly infectious, and until several months in, mutations weren't very significant. The Chinese Communist Party (not China, not the Chinese people, but the CCP) has expended far more energy suppressing research and scientific access than any form of investigation into the origins of the virus. The CCP deliberately suppressed and arrested doctors publicly talking about the virus early on. Edit: Forgot to add that there is a direct paper trail (publicly available on data.gov) of grant documents which specify that the funding will be used in WIV for research of bat coronaviruses with (and I quote from the paper) "humanized mice". Humanized mice, in this context, are mice genetically engineered to have human ACE2 receptors lining their respiratory tissue. In what was the most infuriating moment of public testimony I have ever seen, Dr. Fauci argues that infecting humanized mice with animal viruses (resulting in animal viruses that can more easily infect humans) is NOT gain of function research. He was playing an obvious semantic game, where his definition of GOF is the far narrower concept of making an existing human infecting virus more infectious..... Seriously, I was a big fan of the guy until that single bit of testimony. Now i know he's a lying bureaucrat more than he is a scientist. https://reporter.nih.gov/search/xQW6UJmWfUuOV01ntGvLwQ/project-details/9491676 https://reporter.nih.gov/search/xQW6UJmWfUuOV01ntGvLwQ/proje...
- peter422 5y ago
  > Previous SARS virus outbreaks showed a gradual evolution of a virus to progressively becoming more infectious to humans, and equivalent genetic changes in the virus that can be traced. This one started out as highly infectious, and until several months in, mutations weren't very significant. Both of these statements are so inaccurate. It took many years before scientists were certain what the reservoir was for SARS, and there were already different lineages of the virus at the Wuhan market! You are mad at the CCP for putting out misleading information. You are guilty of the same thing!
  - JohnHaugeland 5y ago
    Imagine trying to say that a statement you disagree with is equivalent to large scale attempts to prevent the discovery of the origin of a disease, causing more death
shakezula 5y ago
The Chinese didn't do anything that we wouldn't have done. In fact, they took better steps than we did, as far as the pandemic is concerned. Of course the dude had concerns, anyone with half a brain would explore all of the possible origins and theories. But the lab leak theory is just that - one theory that could explain the situation at hand. The problem is that too many people have put far too much stock in the lab leak theory to the point that it's being treated as the most likely source of origin, but that's just not what the evidence says.
- cm2187 5y ago
  I'd like to think we don't put doctors in jail when they raise the alarm on a new virus.
  - shakezula 5y ago
    Sure, and I'd like to think we don't run scientific tests on black people without their knowledge or consent, but that doesn't line up either. If you think the U.S. is above unlawfully detaining a doctor, then I've got sad news for you.
    - iammisc 5y ago
      Great argument... if the US did this, I'm sure no one would demand an investigation... /s
      - trasz 5y ago
        US did this many times. The investigations ended up like they usually do in US, starting from My Lai - in the best case they’ll find a single scapegoat and that’s it.
        iammisc 5y ago
        I'm not claiming the us didnt do this. I'm disputing that people would stay silent when the us does this. The us does do this and has large and growing domestic opposition movements.
timbo1642 5y ago
We dont need to compare anything. We already know. Even the Biden administration who kisses China's ass agrees. Its well known and all the virus experts that aren't brainwashed leftists agree. Many of them did from day 1. They had other leaks and there are news articles about it with the original SARS. Stop trying to play pretend and believe the truth.
- s5300 5y ago
  >that aren't brainwashed leftists agree. >Stop trying to play pretend and believe the truth. Just like Bush and his Dubya Em Deez, right? The other side is always brainwashed, and your side always "knows the truth" Why don't you go use that power of yours to go do something helpful?
- outworlder 5y ago
  > brainwashed leftists My heuristic is, whenever I encounter these labels, it's the moment I stop reading. They signal the end of productive conversation, anything surrounding them can be ignored.
  - z3ncyberpunk 5y ago
    Cool?
- lasc4r 5y ago
  From day one it's been silly to assume any outbreak of a virus is from a lab leak without evidence.
  - z3ncyberpunk 5y ago
    There's been plenty, there's been exactly zero evidence though that it was from bats and wet markets. And if it were from bats or other animals, why did fouchi want to collect even more animals that are already being experimented on an increase the rate of already dangerous research?
  - dkersten 5y ago

by cm2187 5y ago

vanattab 5y ago

>The express drive-by the WHO did in china served absolutely no purpose. I served it's purpose perfectly! It allowed China to pretend that an investigation was done.

JPKab 5y ago

To add to your point, it was a chain of improbable coincidences: Pandemic starting at the doorstep of a lab (that is not located in remotely close proximity to the Yunnan caves where the previous SARS viruses were originating from) Previous SARS virus outbreaks (SARS1 and MERS) had zoonotic reservoirs identified in months with dramatically fewer resources, but coincidentally, with vast resources and global efforts, no zoonotic reservoir identified for this virus. Previous SARS virus outbreaks showed a gradual evolution of a virus to progressively becoming more infectious to humans, and equivalent genetic changes in the virus that can be traced. This one started out as highly infectious, and until several months in, mutations weren't very significant. The Chinese Communist Party (not China, not the Chinese people, but the CCP) has expended far more energy suppressing research and scientific access than any form of investigation into the origins of the virus. The CCP deliberately suppressed and arrested doctors publicly talking about the virus early on. Edit: Forgot to add that there is a direct paper trail (publicly available on data.gov) of grant documents which specify that the funding will be used in WIV for research of bat coronaviruses with (and I quote from the paper) "humanized mice". Humanized mice, in this context, are mice genetically engineered to have human ACE2 receptors lining their respiratory tissue. In what was the most infuriating moment of public testimony I have ever seen, Dr. Fauci argues that infecting humanized mice with animal viruses (resulting in animal viruses that can more easily infect humans) is NOT gain of function research. He was playing an obvious semantic game, where his definition of GOF is the far narrower concept of making an existing human infecting virus more infectious..... Seriously, I was a big fan of the guy until that single bit of testimony. Now i know he's a lying bureaucrat more than he is a scientist. https://reporter.nih.gov/search/xQW6UJmWfUuOV01ntGvLwQ/project-details/9491676 https://reporter.nih.gov/search/xQW6UJmWfUuOV01ntGvLwQ/proje...

peter422 5y ago
> Previous SARS virus outbreaks showed a gradual evolution of a virus to progressively becoming more infectious to humans, and equivalent genetic changes in the virus that can be traced. This one started out as highly infectious, and until several months in, mutations weren't very significant. Both of these statements are so inaccurate. It took many years before scientists were certain what the reservoir was for SARS, and there were already different lineages of the virus at the Wuhan market! You are mad at the CCP for putting out misleading information. You are guilty of the same thing!
- JohnHaugeland 5y ago
  Imagine trying to say that a statement you disagree with is equivalent to large scale attempts to prevent the discovery of the origin of a disease, causing more death

shakezula 5y ago

The Chinese didn't do anything that we wouldn't have done. In fact, they took better steps than we did, as far as the pandemic is concerned. Of course the dude had concerns, anyone with half a brain would explore all of the possible origins and theories. But the lab leak theory is just that - one theory that could explain the situation at hand. The problem is that too many people have put far too much stock in the lab leak theory to the point that it's being treated as the most likely source of origin, but that's just not what the evidence says.

cm2187 5y ago
I'd like to think we don't put doctors in jail when they raise the alarm on a new virus.
- shakezula 5y ago
  Sure, and I'd like to think we don't run scientific tests on black people without their knowledge or consent, but that doesn't line up either. If you think the U.S. is above unlawfully detaining a doctor, then I've got sad news for you.
  - iammisc 5y ago
    Great argument... if the US did this, I'm sure no one would demand an investigation... /s
    - trasz 5y ago
      US did this many times. The investigations ended up like they usually do in US, starting from My Lai - in the best case they’ll find a single scapegoat and that’s it.
      - iammisc 5y ago
        I'm not claiming the us didnt do this. I'm disputing that people would stay silent when the us does this. The us does do this and has large and growing domestic opposition movements.

timbo1642 5y ago

We dont need to compare anything. We already know. Even the Biden administration who kisses China's ass agrees. Its well known and all the virus experts that aren't brainwashed leftists agree. Many of them did from day 1. They had other leaks and there are news articles about it with the original SARS. Stop trying to play pretend and believe the truth.

s5300 5y ago
>that aren't brainwashed leftists agree. >Stop trying to play pretend and believe the truth. Just like Bush and his Dubya Em Deez, right? The other side is always brainwashed, and your side always "knows the truth" Why don't you go use that power of yours to go do something helpful?
outworlder 5y ago
> brainwashed leftists My heuristic is, whenever I encounter these labels, it's the moment I stop reading. They signal the end of productive conversation, anything surrounding them can be ignored.
- z3ncyberpunk 5y ago
  Cool?
lasc4r 5y ago
From day one it's been silly to assume any outbreak of a virus is from a lab leak without evidence.
- z3ncyberpunk 5y ago
  There's been plenty, there's been exactly zero evidence though that it was from bats and wet markets. And if it were from bats or other animals, why did fouchi want to collect even more animals that are already being experimented on an increase the rate of already dangerous research?
- dkersten 5y ago