4 ms·

The conversation is getting posed like there's this tidal wave of sexism A constant grind of sexism is more dangerous to the well-being of any social group tha

The conversation is getting posed like there's this tidal wave of sexism A constant grind of sexism is more dangerous to the well-being of any social group than a tidal wave. That's the problem, nothing alienates more than the constant grind of bullshit. please consider the harm by association to those of us who are not sexist. If people don't want to be harmed by association, then they should take an actively anti-sexist stance, and push for that within the industry.

peterwwillis 15y ago
If people don't want to be harmed by association, then they should take an actively anti-sexist stance, and push for that within the industry. You're saying I have to become an outspoken feminist for people to not call me sexist. Not only is that unfair (saying I have to become a part of your movement just so i'm not falsely accused myself, tantamount to blackmail) it's unrealistic. People don't generally win fighting for causes they do not represent. When people want rights or to be treated fairly they have to stand up and demand it because nobody is going to just hand it to them. If there really is rampant sexism in the IT industry, women need to organize and force the system to change. Blog posts will not do anything.
- michaelchisari 15y ago
  Is speaking up when people say or do sexist things really so difficult or odious?
  - peterwwillis 15y ago
    I'm sorry my post was too long to read, but I specifically mentioned speaking up several times. Pushing for change within the industry is different than just speaking up when an asshat makes a sexist comment.
    - michaelchisari 15y ago
      I read your post, which is why I was confused about your knee-jerk reaction, which was based on an over-interpretation of what I was advocating. If someone is defensive, or even just stays silent, when sexist and alienating behavior occurs, then that person can't complain much if people see them as complicit. If they don't want to be tarred with that brush, then they should speak out against it, and work to make the social group more welcoming.
      - kstenerud 15y ago
        Therein lies the problem. I haven't seen sexism in the workplace. I'd certainly condemn it if I did, but I haven't. Is that still not enough? Should I carry around a placard denouncing the sexists everywhere I go? Should I just take the word of someone who got burned by something that there's a huge problem, without anything beyond anecdotal evidence to back up the claim? Should I do the same for racists? How about homophobes? How about bullies? How about people who leave stuff to rot in the communal fridge? Am I anti-gay because I don't attend gay rallies? Am I complicit in animal cruelty because I don't volunteer for the SPCA? Am I anti-veteran because I don't help out at the local homeless shelter? Come to my workplace and point out the sexism, and I'll act to stop it. Otherwise, don't paint me with your brush. This whole "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem" attitude is getting old.
        michaelchisari 15y ago
        Are you not involved in communities such as Hacker News? You don't exactly have to hunt for places where working against sexism could be helpful, you can do it from the comfort of your own home. We live in an online world, and in our industry, our culture is reflected and built online as much as in real life. You don't have to wait for things to show up on your doorstep. Most importantly, though, just because you haven't seen sexism in the workplace, doesn't mean it hasn't existed. A little bit of education never hurts anyone, and being able to better identify what is problematic might show you that things are not as squeaky clean as you thought.
        15y ago

peterwwillis 15y ago

If people don't want to be harmed by association, then they should take an actively anti-sexist stance, and push for that within the industry. You're saying I have to become an outspoken feminist for people to not call me sexist. Not only is that unfair (saying I have to become a part of your movement just so i'm not falsely accused myself, tantamount to blackmail) it's unrealistic. People don't generally win fighting for causes they do not represent. When people want rights or to be treated fairly they have to stand up and demand it because nobody is going to just hand it to them. If there really is rampant sexism in the IT industry, women need to organize and force the system to change. Blog posts will not do anything.

michaelchisari 15y ago
Is speaking up when people say or do sexist things really so difficult or odious?
- peterwwillis 15y ago
  I'm sorry my post was too long to read, but I specifically mentioned speaking up several times. Pushing for change within the industry is different than just speaking up when an asshat makes a sexist comment.
  - michaelchisari 15y ago
    I read your post, which is why I was confused about your knee-jerk reaction, which was based on an over-interpretation of what I was advocating. If someone is defensive, or even just stays silent, when sexist and alienating behavior occurs, then that person can't complain much if people see them as complicit. If they don't want to be tarred with that brush, then they should speak out against it, and work to make the social group more welcoming.
    - kstenerud 15y ago
      Therein lies the problem. I haven't seen sexism in the workplace. I'd certainly condemn it if I did, but I haven't. Is that still not enough? Should I carry around a placard denouncing the sexists everywhere I go? Should I just take the word of someone who got burned by something that there's a huge problem, without anything beyond anecdotal evidence to back up the claim? Should I do the same for racists? How about homophobes? How about bullies? How about people who leave stuff to rot in the communal fridge? Am I anti-gay because I don't attend gay rallies? Am I complicit in animal cruelty because I don't volunteer for the SPCA? Am I anti-veteran because I don't help out at the local homeless shelter? Come to my workplace and point out the sexism, and I'll act to stop it. Otherwise, don't paint me with your brush. This whole "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem" attitude is getting old.
      - michaelchisari 15y ago
        Are you not involved in communities such as Hacker News? You don't exactly have to hunt for places where working against sexism could be helpful, you can do it from the comfort of your own home. We live in an online world, and in our industry, our culture is reflected and built online as much as in real life. You don't have to wait for things to show up on your doorstep. Most importantly, though, just because you haven't seen sexism in the workplace, doesn't mean it hasn't existed. A little bit of education never hurts anyone, and being able to better identify what is problematic might show you that things are not as squeaky clean as you thought.
        15y ago