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I really hope Epic wins the lawsuit against Apple and that the laws being announced in the US Senate/House get passed. I also hope the EU start pushing against

I really hope Epic wins the lawsuit against Apple and that the laws being announced in the US Senate/House get passed. I also hope the EU start pushing against this kind of stuff more. Apple and Google have too much control.

Siira 5y ago
Which is why Apple’s volunteered to run on-device surveillance programs. Between their lobbying power and the holy grail of utter surveillance, the governments will never stand for the basic rights of the people.
- X6S1x6Okd1st 5y ago
  governments aren't monoliths, there are many players that are looking for different things. House reps probably aren't setting their legislative agenda about monopolistic power based off of what the intelligence community would like the most.
  - ajklsdhfniuwehf 5y ago
    there are, at most, two groups.
young_unixer 5y ago
I can also see how legislation would worsen the situation by eliminating incentives for people to use alternative mobile stores and operating systems. "Why use another store, when Google and Apple are required by law to have all apps?"
- sgtfrankieboy 5y ago
  The laws are about being able to provide alternative payment methods and stores. They aren't going to force Google and Apple to have all apps?
  - anonymousab 5y ago
    I think there are a couple of different pieces of legislation, and the "allow multiple stores without discriminating" one is a bit more recent so they may not have seen that one yet.
  - marcus_holmes 5y ago
    Forcing the stores to have all the apps would be bad - swamped in shitty malware. Stopping the stores from demanding that all apps have no method of payment except via their payment services (and its 30% cut) would be good. It would solve the situation in TFA at least.
- jjcon 5y ago
  > Why use another store, when Google and Apple are required by law to have all apps That isn’t at all what is being proposed
DannyBee 5y ago
Y'all are too optimistic. I will predict for you the future of that, based on the past. The next people in line who control most devices are the carriers. They will set up app stores that are required on their phones (since the laws will not prevent this). Each will have exclusive apps that require their app store be installed (and will not be available on other phones). Things will be a mishmash. Nobody will be actually happy. The carriers also have great lobbyists, and are really great at doing this kind of thing. It will take a long time to undo it.
- hypothesis 5y ago
  > Nobody will be actually happy. I’ve heard people say that about true compromise… It seems like there are extremes, carriers were abusing their positions before Apple came up with iPhone and app store and wrangled power away from carriers. Now they have lived long enough to become the villain… it might be time to reset matrix again and work towards a better outcome.
  - DannyBee 5y ago
    The natural state of these things is one where someone is abusing it, whether carriers or someone else. I don't actually disagree with your assessment of what happened, but i don't have the hope people here do. I have watched the ebb and flow too many times, and lived in DC too long :) I also think the hope is amazingly misplaced. Rarely, if ever, do complex systems like this change in the desired way as a result of trying to "fix them" directly. Sometimes they change, sometimes the inertia keeps them in the same state. But it rarely, if ever, does this kind of change have the intended effect. They even teach this in complex system theory.
    - Dracophoenix 5y ago
      >> Sometimes they change, sometimes the inertia keeps them in the same state. But it rarely, if ever, does this kind of change have the intended effect. The Monkey's Paw, I take it.
    - deleted 5y ago
OrvalWintermute 5y ago
I hope Epic wins also. My opinion is that Google, and Apple are Bundling/Tying at multiple levels, and using monopoly power in a way that stifles the market, and impedes innovation. This is some good stuff on some of these issues https://www.justice.gov/atr/chapter-5-antitrust-issues-tying-and-bundling-intellectual-property-rights https://www.justice.gov/atr/chapter-5-antitrust-issues-tying...
bobcall 5y ago
If Epic wins, it will set a bad precedent and we will all lose as a result. The the government should not compel what a company, or individual, can say or publish; this result would do just that. If I want to build a platform that does not enable or allow other potentially malicious software repositories, it should be my right to do so; I should be able to charge what I like for the privilege. Like it or not, the "selling point" of Apple's walled garden to some is that it is locked down. If you don't like what Apple chooses to do, there are millions of other options that don't include Apple, or Google, at the table. If we start letting the government legislate the software that we are "allowed" to write or use, then what remaining freedoms we have left will be gone. Creating laws, or bad precedents in court, in knee-jerk response to Epic's temper tantrum is not how we solve these issues, considering that Tim Sweeney tried to bring "open source" into this debacle when Epic has a history of being hostile towards it.

Siira 5y ago

Which is why Apple’s volunteered to run on-device surveillance programs. Between their lobbying power and the holy grail of utter surveillance, the governments will never stand for the basic rights of the people.

X6S1x6Okd1st 5y ago
governments aren't monoliths, there are many players that are looking for different things. House reps probably aren't setting their legislative agenda about monopolistic power based off of what the intelligence community would like the most.
- ajklsdhfniuwehf 5y ago
  there are, at most, two groups.

young_unixer 5y ago

I can also see how legislation would worsen the situation by eliminating incentives for people to use alternative mobile stores and operating systems. "Why use another store, when Google and Apple are required by law to have all apps?"

sgtfrankieboy 5y ago
The laws are about being able to provide alternative payment methods and stores. They aren't going to force Google and Apple to have all apps?
- anonymousab 5y ago
  I think there are a couple of different pieces of legislation, and the "allow multiple stores without discriminating" one is a bit more recent so they may not have seen that one yet.
- marcus_holmes 5y ago
  Forcing the stores to have all the apps would be bad - swamped in shitty malware. Stopping the stores from demanding that all apps have no method of payment except via their payment services (and its 30% cut) would be good. It would solve the situation in TFA at least.
jjcon 5y ago
> Why use another store, when Google and Apple are required by law to have all apps That isn’t at all what is being proposed

DannyBee 5y ago

Y'all are too optimistic. I will predict for you the future of that, based on the past. The next people in line who control most devices are the carriers. They will set up app stores that are required on their phones (since the laws will not prevent this). Each will have exclusive apps that require their app store be installed (and will not be available on other phones). Things will be a mishmash. Nobody will be actually happy. The carriers also have great lobbyists, and are really great at doing this kind of thing. It will take a long time to undo it.

hypothesis 5y ago
> Nobody will be actually happy. I’ve heard people say that about true compromise… It seems like there are extremes, carriers were abusing their positions before Apple came up with iPhone and app store and wrangled power away from carriers. Now they have lived long enough to become the villain… it might be time to reset matrix again and work towards a better outcome.
- DannyBee 5y ago
  The natural state of these things is one where someone is abusing it, whether carriers or someone else. I don't actually disagree with your assessment of what happened, but i don't have the hope people here do. I have watched the ebb and flow too many times, and lived in DC too long :) I also think the hope is amazingly misplaced. Rarely, if ever, do complex systems like this change in the desired way as a result of trying to "fix them" directly. Sometimes they change, sometimes the inertia keeps them in the same state. But it rarely, if ever, does this kind of change have the intended effect. They even teach this in complex system theory.
  - Dracophoenix 5y ago
    >> Sometimes they change, sometimes the inertia keeps them in the same state. But it rarely, if ever, does this kind of change have the intended effect. The Monkey's Paw, I take it.
  - deleted 5y ago

OrvalWintermute 5y ago

I hope Epic wins also. My opinion is that Google, and Apple are Bundling/Tying at multiple levels, and using monopoly power in a way that stifles the market, and impedes innovation. This is some good stuff on some of these issues https://www.justice.gov/atr/chapter-5-antitrust-issues-tying-and-bundling-intellectual-property-rights https://www.justice.gov/atr/chapter-5-antitrust-issues-tying...

bobcall 5y ago

If Epic wins, it will set a bad precedent and we will all lose as a result. The the government should not compel what a company, or individual, can say or publish; this result would do just that. If I want to build a platform that does not enable or allow other potentially malicious software repositories, it should be my right to do so; I should be able to charge what I like for the privilege. Like it or not, the "selling point" of Apple's walled garden to some is that it is locked down. If you don't like what Apple chooses to do, there are millions of other options that don't include Apple, or Google, at the table. If we start letting the government legislate the software that we are "allowed" to write or use, then what remaining freedoms we have left will be gone. Creating laws, or bad precedents in court, in knee-jerk response to Epic's temper tantrum is not how we solve these issues, considering that Tim Sweeney tried to bring "open source" into this debacle when Epic has a history of being hostile towards it.