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Ask HN: Should I even bother competing for React jobs?

• giantg2 5y ago
  "Wtf do I do to actually put an ostensibly useful skill to actual use?" I wish I could tell you. I have a job as a developer and it sucks (at least it pays somewhat ok). I don't get to use any real skills. All the work is bullshit that nobody else wants to do. Maybe try switching to different tech or different types of companies? I plan to switch from my current team to something else. Not sure what I'll end up doing. It looks like there's not a lot of opportunity out there for me, so it will probably take a long time.
  • brailsafe 5y ago
    That's generally how I felt in some of my previous positions. There was no point to the work, I never met the customers, but at least it was technically interesting. My manual labour job is much more rewarding honestly. Maybe if I land something I'll keep an extra part time gig around to keep me sane.
• 908B64B197 5y ago
  Where did you graduate from? What's the local industry like around you?
  • brailsafe 5y ago
    I'm mostly self taught aside from a diploma and some formal CS. It's a decent market, but the crux of the question was less about the overall market, because obviously every company is hiring React people, but also vastly more people are applying because it's a commodity skill. Basically lots of huge funnels to enter into. I'm not a new grad at all.
• cableshaft 5y ago
  Maybe focus more on backend skills? Those tend to change a lot slower. SQL knowledge is still plenty marketable, even with no-SQL and GraphQL out there. I'm still getting a good amount of attention from recruiters even though I have zero professional React experience. But then again I do have some decent Angular experience.
• istorical 5y ago
  If you've been programming for years and can't get an entry level job, it might be that your presentation skills / communication skills are the weak link. Might be worth doing a mock interview with a professional whose job it is to help you get a job (you may have to pay them for their time) to make sure there's nothing obviously wrong with the way you are presenting yourself. As far as react goes, have you done work on front-end only or back-end as well? Do you have experience with databases and writing SQL? Getting a full-stack engineer role often requires less 'know this exact framework/language' if you can do some simple technical screens online where you can select from multiple languages or in-person via pseudocode. When you say you can't get a job doing it, how many positions did you apply to? Even for a competitive candidate with a degree, you might have to send out 50 applications to get in pipeline with 10-15, ultimately end up with 2-3 offers. Last, what country are you from?
  • brailsafe 5y ago
    I don't seem to have too much of an issue speaking with people, simply based on how comfortable the conversation usually is and proceeding to next steps, but it could be a weaker signal than I think and so I'll certainly consider it. As well, I've been exploring fullstack positions too, only just recently though. I think I'd be capable in those respects. I've definitely sent out (conservatively) beyond 75 applications and participated in 25-60 interviews (off the top of my head) depending on what you consider an interview to be. I'd say I have no problem getting into some sort of pipeline, but in terms of participation in interview processes, most now start (some not even speaking to you first) with some hour to 3 hour hackerrank test. It's not feasible to increase my coverage that way. I'm in the Canadian market, with a little exposure to remote jobs in the U.S and elsewhere.
    • Spooky23 5y ago
      Look for a job in public sector to get some paid experience. They are always behind the curve on stuff like interview practices and you won’t find the stupid testing bullshit. Either you’ll like it and stay or can build relationships with contractors or others and get referrals or other opportunities. Personally, i think front end web work sucks, but I’m more of a systems programmer that ended up in a sysadmin+engineer role before SRE was a thing.
• eyelidlessness 5y ago
  If your skill set is primarily around JS, you may have better luck targeting: - full-stack positions with a Node backend. Their hiring process may be less frontend framework specific - positions with more than one front-end framework in their stack. They will usually care more about a more general skill set
  • brailsafe 5y ago
    Good suggestion. The latter is certainly what I'm hoping for, in the latest case the company did have a more general skill-set requirement, and I proceeded through the first two rounds without issue. They then issued me a test limited to 8 hours in React (which I really had no issue with technically), which I hesitantly started hoping to get it done quickly. It took me longer than I thought, simply because I wasn't expecting it to be in React and it had some finicky bits, but not terribly long. I ended up ending it at around 5/5 test cases on the first and 3/5 on the second due to time constraints. That was a week ago, they rejected me this morning after I prompted them. I get the sense nobody actually looked at it, or they had such a large funnel that they were able to pick some specific thing they didn't like.
• dyeje 5y ago
  If you aren't getting opportunities because you can't pass React tests, then it sounds like you should practice React. There is plenty of work to go around, don't waste your time worrying about how long others have been doing React.
  • brailsafe 5y ago
    I meant to be a little more specific with my language, such that it's not entirely that I'm not passing the tests, but even if I do, companies are now not even seemingly thinking about me as a candidate until I pass that stage completely. So maybe I'll pass all test cases, submit it, and they'll send me an automated rejection.
  • deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
• Mc91 5y ago
  Large companies and startups are both looking for React programmers. Large companies can afford to pay competitive salaries, and the wheels for hiring can move slowly. Many startups can't compete on salary, thus they have to settle for devs who don't win the React competitions. So maybe think of looking at smaller companies.
  • brailsafe 5y ago
    I feel like I wrote my question in a way that indicates a lack of React positions, but it's more about that most companies are looking for only React developers, and everyone else seems to be react developers. I don't struggle with React, it's pretty easy actually, and I have a small amount of professional experience writing it, but because it can boil down to basically who completes the test and who completes it fastest, I don't even know if it's worth trying to compete with everyone who's most likely been doing React exclusively since they got out of bootcamp.
• dingusthemingus 5y ago
  Il just assume you are in the US market. Sounds like you need some guidance on the interview process, you might be applying to the wrong type of jobs, you might want to be more selective/directed with your approach/goals. Maybe you are unable to adequatly prepare for interviews due to your current day job. You should have a plan, how long you can practice interviewing before running out of money, and then go from there. Maybe you can try get a less physically taxing day job so you can study/practice more after work until you get a great dev job. Ive interviewed for some basic software engineer roles in the US NY region with Node in the last 2 years that basically just wanted basic JS experience to work there without any production Node experience. No 8 hour tests, just general discussions, and build a CRUD app that handles X type of object. Programs like Outco(costs money) exist to help software engineers improve their interviewing skills/try get more money in their next job, even if they are experts with great experience they take these classes because interviewing can be hard for some devs. If i were you i would spend a day or two researching the current state of interviewing for JS/react roles. Its a big market, lots of devs talking about succeeding in it online. Start talking to currently employed software engineers for specific advice on your current issues. Fish for referrels, this is the biggest way companies hire nowadays in US in my opinion.
  • brailsafe 5y ago
    I'm in Canada, but have been applying to some U.S based positions. The availability of jobs focussed on React and the availability of people for those positions is the issue, not the problem, because of the reduction of the hiring process down into whoever will spend x time doing a test, and then simply who did it fastest or best. So the question is not wjether it's a marketable skill, but is it worth attempting to fight up that kind of a stream. I think part of this is exactly why I can apply to U.S jobs. Now that arguably everyone in the world can apply to every job in the world, the situation seems untenable unless you have a spotless and thorough record.
    • dingusthemingus 5y ago
      I assume Canada job circumstances would differ slightly than US, also less opportunities i assume so i agree your plan of looking at US makes sense, Just a note, in the US, my understanding is most companies are not planning on offshoring most jobs overseas even though they are remote jobs basically in the short term. We all do expect more of that to happen in the future though. My company is US has a deal with the city its in, the state its in as well. Even though we are all remote now (except for the hardware people), all of the employees are expected to live in a commutable distance to the office so post covid going back to work will be a thing. I think companies get tax breaks and have agreements with municipalities to bring jobs to an area.
• heckingoodtimes 5y ago
  I’m in my 30s and was coming off the back of part-time retail jobs before I landed my first dev job. I have a B.A. and taught myself programming (including React). Over the course of 4 years, my gross income went to something like 25k to 160k (in the U.S.) because I learned React. So, I guess, don’t compete if you’re not up to it, but if you’re willing, the jobs and monies are out there. You just need to get your first dev job, stick it out for a year or two (even if it sucks), and you should be a lot more desirable going forward. Do whatever you need to do to get that first one under your belt. I personally know another person (bootcamp grad). Got their first job at 80k and is about to double their salary after a couple years.
  • brailsafe 5y ago
    I think I didn't make it obvious that I've also done this professionally for years, just not specifically React, but everyone else in the same market started with React years ago professionally and now I'm competing with them because everyone also bet on React. My last dev job did have me bringing in around 110k CAD which I'm perfectly happy with. Grats on putting yourself in a great position my friend :)
    • heckingoodtimes 5y ago
      Ohhh! I wonder why you’re having so much trouble. I’m in a very competitive market. I also refuse to do leetcode and whiteboards, and will only do small, clearly defined take-homes (since I lack a portfolio and kind of enjoy them). I don’t bother with the alphabet companies (no interest and don’t want to waste my time with their interview process). Maybe try targeting your companies more selectively? And thanks, by the way! :) Life-changing skillset.
      • brailsafe 5y ago
        In general I do expect to be a bit disadvante, because my resume is pretty spotty. If you're starting fresh, I'd wager you'd have a better shot honestly. But that's sort of a discrete aspect, because I'm not having too much trouble actually getting the interviews.
• davidajackson 5y ago
  If you don't want to compete on React jobs: Optimize for companies that do leetcode interviews, because it's 45 minutes versus sometimes 3-5 hours just for a first stage. Don't do long take homes, unless you really want the job. Take homes are always eeking one more hour out of you, especially when you get to the 'nice to haves' sections... If you do want to compete on React: Find a way to set yourself apart. Maybe start a blog on React basics and start posting it here on HN? Then drop that in your job application process somehow when you have enough articles/projects.
  • brailsafe 5y ago
    What I'm seeing is that a majority of companies are doing 1.5 - 3 hour leetcodes as an automatically generated first step, akin to Amazon. I haven't yet passed Amazon's test, but I suppose if I spent time trying to get there, it would hypothetically carry over to other leetcode interviews. The problem is that getting a job is a crazy numbers game, and if it takes 3 hours to apply to a single job, realistically I have to stay unemployed and grind those for 10 hours a day to even have a shot. Admittedly it's not quite there yet, but it's pretty bad. Companies now have an extremely cheap way to search for and normalize all candidates, sometimes spending as little as 30 mins to 1 hr of their own time per successful applicant that makes it to the end. Not that I necessarily want to work for a company that does this, but it's a bit scary. It's not just tech either. I just spoke to a random dude on the street who expressed uneasiness at his automated robot interview (his words) for a part-time delivery driver position. 50 self-administered questions, 1 audio recording, and then a follow up where I think he gets to answer similarly delivered questions to an automated system. It's a bit distopian.
    • davidajackson 5y ago
      Probably the most actionable advice I can give is don't apply to jobs that take 3 hours to apply to. I forget what sites it is, but some just have you upload your resume once. Don't do the ones that force you to fill out all experiences manually, unless you really want the job.
      • 5y ago
• yuppie_scum 5y ago
  This is the most candidate-friendly job market in decades. The winds are behind you.
  • brailsafe 5y ago
    That's what I keep hearing ;) But really it only seems that way if you get or have been very lucky.
    • muzani 5y ago
      I think it's very friendly. I don't think I'm lucky though. It only took 7 months of interviews to land a new job.
      • brailsafe 5y ago
        It's nice to hear that I'm not the only one, but I'm sorry it took so long and congrats on landing one. The way people are talking about it, it would seem like you can just say yes to a recruiter and automatically increase your salary by 50k.
        • muzani 5y ago
          I enjoyed the process though. It's like dating, but as the hot girl. It's a bad place to be in if you urgently need a new job, though.
          • brailsafe 5y ago
            That's a nice outlook. Maybe I can reframe my perspective and find a way to enjoy it again.
• muzani 5y ago
  React is supposed to be the easy way to get a job. If you feel the market is too competitive, try something else. Ruby on Rails is probably the next most popular web stack. Mobile is another form of "front end". Try Flutter, or native Android/iOS. Vue and Angular are quite popular too. I feel like React has mostly been adopted because it's a replaceable part. But there's plenty of good web stacks too. It's all a balance of risk and returns, and you want to hedge your bets.
  • brailsafe 5y ago
    I think I might just do that. My concern is largely about just how much of a double ended commodity it seems to be. It's very easy to find people and very easy to learn, so it's very easy to cast a massive net and compare everyone. I asked this question initially because I was just rejected from yet another apparently more general JS stack oriented agency type place that ended up testing me exclusively on React. I didn't struggle with it, but I certainly wouldn't have timed better than someone who had touched it more recently. I only had time available to me to get through 8/10 test cases, and I'm pretty sure they just saw that and considered me someone who can't write code.
    • ozzythecat 5y ago
      What country are you in? And is front end development really your passion? For me, I did web development for a few years earlier in my career and then moved on to native mobile and web services work. I don’t have a particular interest in web and feel there’s myriad complex tooling and endless web frameworks, where React is the more recent hotness. How many different ways do we need to solve a problem, and why weren’t the older ways sufficient isn’t clear to me. The web dev space has almost infinite solutions to problems that don’t exist. But I digress. I’d encourage you to look at mobile or working in services. There are also data engineering related roles where you can write code (Spark, ETL) and work with folks who build ML models. My point is - if you want to code, there are many options to explore outside of web development.
      • brailsafe 5y ago
• Nextgrid 5y ago
  Could you try create or showcase existing personal projects to demonstrate your skills and the decline any tests and point them to those projects explaining that spending 3 hours on a test for every job application isn’t sustainable?
• codingclaws 5y ago
  How many years have you been programming? I would recommend learning the fundamentals (HTML, CSS, JavaScript) because React is a code smell [1]. [1] https://www.peachesnstink.com/p/McgAxopYuNacWbhodHCxIS https://www.peachesnstink.com/p/McgAxopYuNacWbhodHCxIS
• TechBro8615 5y ago
  Yes, even if you are terrible, nobody knows how to interview, so if nothing else, just by chance you’ll eventually land a job and an opportunity to prove yourself. If you’re not good at the HackerRank thing, then don’t do it. There are hundreds of startups out there completely desperate for frontend developers right now. Find them and convince them to hire you, even if just for a month.
• DarrenDev 5y ago
  Take React off your Resume entirely, that way you should be able to filter out the jobs you won't get anyway, and you should be able to say no to any online test that requires React. I'd also look again at the type of companies you're applying to. Insurance companies, banks, pharma, government agencies - Enterprise software basically - these tend not to be using the most cutting edge front end frameworks. Also, if you have even a small amount of experience in Enterprise type backend technologies you should be able to land a backend or full stack role at one of these types of companies. .Net, Java, etc.