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Perhaps women just don't want to get into computer science. And no amount of bending over backwards and trying to appeal to female programmers will get us t

Perhaps women just don't want to get into computer science. And no amount of bending over backwards and trying to appeal to female programmers will get us to a situation of 50% female developers. Or perhaps they do want to get into computer science and there are a number of obstacles stopping them. Most people would agree with this. If you're going come up a controversial answer, you better have some solid evidence backing you up.

k33n 15y ago
> Most people would agree with this. I doubt it. And I don't really find his answer controversial at all.
yummyfajitas 15y ago
If you're going come up a controversial answer, you better have some solid evidence backing you up. Would he not need solid evidence if he were pushing the politically correct answer?
tsotha 15y ago
>Or perhaps they do want to get into computer science and there are a number of obstacles stopping them. Most people would agree with this. You might want to provide some support for this before you start demanding evidence from other people.
ryandvm 15y ago
What are these obstacles? Employers are dying to hire female programmers. Universities are dying for females to enter CS programs. Right now, a women that sets her mind on programming has an easier chance of landing a job than any given guy. Basically, women just aren't interested. I'm not sure it's an obstacle. Why aren't we just as concerned that there are far fewer male hairdressers than female?
- cheez 15y ago
  You have ignored the 18 years leading up to the university. Infants: Pink clothes (ok, no biggie) Toddler: dolls, playing mommy and dressup Preschool: more of toddler, perhaps getting into TV now. Oh look, none of the women on TV are into science or tech. Maybe I shouldn't be either. School: Come on Carly, let's play with dolls. But I wanna play on the computer. LOSER. Teenager: What kind of a nerd plays with electronics and gadgets, lets go shopping! So society is completely geared towards beating it out of them. As the father of a pre-teen who has probably solved more software bugs than most her age and is deeply into robotics, it is a constant, constant battle even though she loves the field. Let's not forget all the aunties, grandmas and neighbours who don't encourage tech curiosity for girls. "Hey, here's another shitty fashion toy for your birthday" meanwhile, the girl is thinking "I really wanted a gizmo... oh well." Even though dad specifically sent around suggestions for the next robot she wants to build. Your universities can want females all they want, but society... I want to punch it sometimes. Edit: I should mention that TV is getting a little better with this. There are a couple of female leads in shows that are technically oriented.
  - dpark 15y ago
    Society does push both genders toward and away from particular careers; look at the imbalance in nurses or teachers for the other side. However, this has nothing to do with sexism in the workplace. It's not sexism in the software industry that causes society to push women away from the sciences. (That's not to say that sexism doesn't exist in the software industry or that it's not a problem.)
    - cheez 15y ago
      The guy I was replying to said: > Basically, women just aren't interested. I'm not sure it's an obstacle. I was pointing out that even if they are interested in science or computers, the deck is stacked against them from the time they are born.
      - dpark 15y ago
        Fair enough. I took his statement to refer to obstacles in the university and job setting. Perhaps that's not what he meant, though.
  - Perceval 15y ago
    As I recall from my own primary and secondary education, being a nerd who likes reading about science and math, and spends most of his time after school on his computer is not exactly encouraged by society either. Your parents want to cut down on your time spent in front of the computer, your dad wants you to go outside and play sports, the jocks at school give you shit, the girls pay no attention to you. Girls interested in computers may be portrayed as losers and antisocial and outcasts, but guys interested in computers have been portrayed as and treated by society as antisocial outcast losers for as long as there has been such a thing as a computer geek. Given that amount of social pressure and shaming and exclusion faced by young computer nerds, one wonders why anyone would go into tech. But more boys do and fewer girls do.
    - cheez 15y ago
      You're right, but I think girls have an even less incentive. Based on my experience as a father of a girl.
- solipsist 15y ago
  Why aren't we just as concerned that there are far fewer male hairdressers than female? CS jobs are held in higher esteem in society than hair dressing jobs. They pay more and require more experience.
- solipsist 15y ago
  Why aren't we just as concerned that there are far fewer male hairdressers than female CS jobs are held in higher esteem than hair dressing jobs. They pay more and require more experience.
- solipsist 15y ago
  Why aren't we just as concerned that there are far fewer male hairdressers than female CS jobs are held in higher esteem than hair dressing jobs. They pay more and require more experience.
rokhayakebe 15y ago
The keyword is here is perhaps. What are these obstacles that you speak off?
- uncr3ative 15y ago
  Imagine you are going to class of 100 students, 99 of which are women. It is fairly awkward, like walking into a men's club. Because I am generally quiet, mostly the guys pretended I wasn't there (definitely, better than the alternative.) They would talk about things I had no interest listening to - rated various women, and more innocent things like football. Anyway, every time I walked into that room I felt like I was intruding. And I think if you were to walk into a room with 99 women you would feel awkward as well. From my perspective, as a woman software engineer - there is no "perhaps" about it.
  - tsotha 15y ago
    That's it? Huh. After all these years I find women really are the weaker sex.
  - michaelcampbell 15y ago
    So... "obstacle" one is you're embarrassed by your gender? What's the next one?
    - thricedotted 15y ago
      ...I don't know how to put this more clearly than uncr3ative already did, but both of the responses to that post have basically demonstrated exactly why we feel the way we do when we walk into a classroom dominated by men. It's not embarrassment. It's the fact that you walk in and you are already seen as the "other", different from them. The fact that they can be talking about you as if you're an The fact that they will be talking about their interests which might not coincide with yours (but oftentimes coincide with you and people of your sex), and so you're not sure how to broach conversation with them. The fact that you feel like an intruder, unwanted or invisible, because you're not in ~the clique~ and therefore shouldn't be there. The fact that somebody would respond to this, and put quotes around "obstacle", because how could any of those things be an obstacle at all? I'm sorry that your level of privilege has never allowed you to savor the harsh taste of true intimidation at some point in your life.
dhume 15y ago
Or perhaps they do want to get into computer science and there are a number of obstacles stopping them. Most people would agree with this. Keep in mind when looking for the cause of the lopsided male-female split that it happens well before they even start university.
michaelcampbell 15y ago
> Or perhaps they do want to get into computer science and there are a number of obstacles stopping them. Most people would agree with this. > If you're going come up a controversial answer, you better have some solid evidence backing you up. I find these 2 statements, back to back, presented in a serious context about the most amusing thing I've seen in a long, long time.

k33n 15y ago

> Most people would agree with this. I doubt it. And I don't really find his answer controversial at all.

yummyfajitas 15y ago

If you're going come up a controversial answer, you better have some solid evidence backing you up. Would he not need solid evidence if he were pushing the politically correct answer?

tsotha 15y ago

>Or perhaps they do want to get into computer science and there are a number of obstacles stopping them. Most people would agree with this. You might want to provide some support for this before you start demanding evidence from other people.

ryandvm 15y ago

What are these obstacles? Employers are dying to hire female programmers. Universities are dying for females to enter CS programs. Right now, a women that sets her mind on programming has an easier chance of landing a job than any given guy. Basically, women just aren't interested. I'm not sure it's an obstacle. Why aren't we just as concerned that there are far fewer male hairdressers than female?

cheez 15y ago
You have ignored the 18 years leading up to the university. Infants: Pink clothes (ok, no biggie) Toddler: dolls, playing mommy and dressup Preschool: more of toddler, perhaps getting into TV now. Oh look, none of the women on TV are into science or tech. Maybe I shouldn't be either. School: Come on Carly, let's play with dolls. But I wanna play on the computer. LOSER. Teenager: What kind of a nerd plays with electronics and gadgets, lets go shopping! So society is completely geared towards beating it out of them. As the father of a pre-teen who has probably solved more software bugs than most her age and is deeply into robotics, it is a constant, constant battle even though she loves the field. Let's not forget all the aunties, grandmas and neighbours who don't encourage tech curiosity for girls. "Hey, here's another shitty fashion toy for your birthday" meanwhile, the girl is thinking "I really wanted a gizmo... oh well." Even though dad specifically sent around suggestions for the next robot she wants to build. Your universities can want females all they want, but society... I want to punch it sometimes. Edit: I should mention that TV is getting a little better with this. There are a couple of female leads in shows that are technically oriented.
- dpark 15y ago
  Society does push both genders toward and away from particular careers; look at the imbalance in nurses or teachers for the other side. However, this has nothing to do with sexism in the workplace. It's not sexism in the software industry that causes society to push women away from the sciences. (That's not to say that sexism doesn't exist in the software industry or that it's not a problem.)
  - cheez 15y ago
    The guy I was replying to said: > Basically, women just aren't interested. I'm not sure it's an obstacle. I was pointing out that even if they are interested in science or computers, the deck is stacked against them from the time they are born.
    - dpark 15y ago
      Fair enough. I took his statement to refer to obstacles in the university and job setting. Perhaps that's not what he meant, though.
- Perceval 15y ago
  As I recall from my own primary and secondary education, being a nerd who likes reading about science and math, and spends most of his time after school on his computer is not exactly encouraged by society either. Your parents want to cut down on your time spent in front of the computer, your dad wants you to go outside and play sports, the jocks at school give you shit, the girls pay no attention to you. Girls interested in computers may be portrayed as losers and antisocial and outcasts, but guys interested in computers have been portrayed as and treated by society as antisocial outcast losers for as long as there has been such a thing as a computer geek. Given that amount of social pressure and shaming and exclusion faced by young computer nerds, one wonders why anyone would go into tech. But more boys do and fewer girls do.
  - cheez 15y ago
    You're right, but I think girls have an even less incentive. Based on my experience as a father of a girl.
solipsist 15y ago
Why aren't we just as concerned that there are far fewer male hairdressers than female? CS jobs are held in higher esteem in society than hair dressing jobs. They pay more and require more experience.
solipsist 15y ago
Why aren't we just as concerned that there are far fewer male hairdressers than female CS jobs are held in higher esteem than hair dressing jobs. They pay more and require more experience.
solipsist 15y ago
Why aren't we just as concerned that there are far fewer male hairdressers than female CS jobs are held in higher esteem than hair dressing jobs. They pay more and require more experience.

rokhayakebe 15y ago

The keyword is here is perhaps. What are these obstacles that you speak off?

uncr3ative 15y ago
Imagine you are going to class of 100 students, 99 of which are women. It is fairly awkward, like walking into a men's club. Because I am generally quiet, mostly the guys pretended I wasn't there (definitely, better than the alternative.) They would talk about things I had no interest listening to - rated various women, and more innocent things like football. Anyway, every time I walked into that room I felt like I was intruding. And I think if you were to walk into a room with 99 women you would feel awkward as well. From my perspective, as a woman software engineer - there is no "perhaps" about it.
- tsotha 15y ago
  That's it? Huh. After all these years I find women really are the weaker sex.
- michaelcampbell 15y ago
  So... "obstacle" one is you're embarrassed by your gender? What's the next one?
  - thricedotted 15y ago
    ...I don't know how to put this more clearly than uncr3ative already did, but both of the responses to that post have basically demonstrated exactly why we feel the way we do when we walk into a classroom dominated by men. It's not embarrassment. It's the fact that you walk in and you are already seen as the "other", different from them. The fact that they can be talking about you as if you're an The fact that they will be talking about their interests which might not coincide with yours (but oftentimes coincide with you and people of your sex), and so you're not sure how to broach conversation with them. The fact that you feel like an intruder, unwanted or invisible, because you're not in ~the clique~ and therefore shouldn't be there. The fact that somebody would respond to this, and put quotes around "obstacle", because how could any of those things be an obstacle at all? I'm sorry that your level of privilege has never allowed you to savor the harsh taste of true intimidation at some point in your life.

dhume 15y ago

Or perhaps they do want to get into computer science and there are a number of obstacles stopping them. Most people would agree with this. Keep in mind when looking for the cause of the lopsided male-female split that it happens well before they even start university.

michaelcampbell 15y ago

> Or perhaps they do want to get into computer science and there are a number of obstacles stopping them. Most people would agree with this. > If you're going come up a controversial answer, you better have some solid evidence backing you up. I find these 2 statements, back to back, presented in a serious context about the most amusing thing I've seen in a long, long time.