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Once again, my fellow Americans, if you are ever confused about how the Taliban won the hearts and minds of various groups within their country so quickly — whi

by numair 5y ago

Once again, my fellow Americans, if you are ever confused about how the Taliban won the hearts and minds of various groups within their country so quickly — while being such utterly backwards, terrible people — remember that we collaborated with pedophiles to “manage” Afghanistan, to the disgust of our own troops: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/world/asia/us-soldiers-told-to-ignore-afghan-allies-abuse-of-boys.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/world/asia/us-soldiers-to... I’ll never stop reminding people of this, because 1) it’s INSANE; 2) any sane person would say “yeah if you’re on the non-pedophile side I’d probably choose you over the other guys.”

spaced-out 5y ago
>yeah if you’re on the non-pedophile side You're assuming there's a non-pedophile side?
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- nate_meurer 5y ago
  Yes, that's the Taliban. From https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/10/28/bacha-bazi-an-afghan-tragedy https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/10/28/bacha-bazi-an-afghan-tr...: "The Taliban had a deep aversion towards bacha bazi, outlawing the practice when they instituted strict nationwide sharia law. According to some accounts, including the hallmark Times of London article “Kandahar Comes out of the Closet” in 2002, one of the original provocations for the Taliban’s rise to power in the early 1990s was their outrage over pedophilia. Once they came to power, bacha bazi became taboo, and the men who still engaged in the practice did so in secret."
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  - notathrowaway3 5y ago
    No, it's not the Taliban. From https://www.reuters.com/article/us-afghanistan-rights-women-idUSKCN1B31PL https://www.reuters.com/article/us-afghanistan-rights-women-... "Fatima’s Taliban husband was so controlling that he refused to allow her to bathe and threatened to burn her face if she dared wear make up, suspicious that his 12-year-old Afghan wife was trying to make herself attractive to other men." “He became my lawful husband and began to rape me and beat me every single day for not consenting (to sex),” The Taliban being a pedophile network is well known.
    - nate_meurer 5y ago
      If I may reply to the first version of your comment, I agree with you that the Taliban are guilty of similarly revolting treatment of girls and women. I sympathize with the comment at the top of the thread that the Taliban are "utterly backwards, terrible people". So maybe I should say only that the Taliban are the "non-bacha-bazi" side.
      - notathrowaway3 5y ago
        >So maybe I should say only that the Taliban are the "non-bacha-bazi" side. Which is meaningless. Both sides are sexually abusing children. They are just as morally repugnant.
  - spaced-out 5y ago
    If the Taliban is so opposed to pedophilia, why are there so many reported stories of girls as young as 12 being forced to "marry" men more than twice their age?
    - deleted 5y ago
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    - notathrowaway5 5y ago
      @dang Is there a reason why all the comments pointing out the FACT that the Taliban also partakes in pedophilia are getting [flagged]? This is extremely suspicious. The comment I'm replying to is going to be flagged within minutes, as is this one.
      - dang 5y ago
        Maybe because you're posting them all, with several different accounts, and abusively deleting your comments and reposting them? Could you please stop creating accounts to break HN's guidelines with? We're trying for a different sort of site here.
        notathrowaway6 5y ago
        I was deleting and reposting because they were getting insta-flagged. The comments weren't breaking site guidelines and we're relevant to the discussion. This is reddit level narrative shaping... I had no clue that kind of abusive flagging would make it's way to HN. I will make a permanent account at your request. Thank you.
        dang 5y ago
        The comments were certainly breaking the site guidelines! Would you mind reviewing them? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html We're trying to avoid flamewar here, and generally the use of the site for political and ideological battle, because it destroys the spirit of curiosity the forum is supposed to exist for.
- notathrowaway4 5y ago
  Leftists hate the US/West so much there are literally Taliban apologists here [flagging] any comments that go against the narrative. You're assumption is correct: there is no non-pedophile side. From https://www.reuters.com/article/us-afghanistan-rights-women-idUSKCN1B31PL https://www.reuters.com/article/us-afghanistan-rights-women-... "Fatima’s Taliban husband was so controlling that he refused to allow her to bathe and threatened to burn her face if she dared wear make up, suspicious that his 12-year-old Afghan wife was trying to make herself attractive to other men." “He became my lawful husband and began to rape me and beat me every single day for not consenting (to sex),” The Taliban being a pedophile network is well known.
umvi 5y ago
> if you are ever confused about how the Taliban won the hearts and minds of various groups within their country so quickly How is it America's fault that Afghan police officers are child molesters? I'm sure if Americans had punished them, the Taliban could have PR spun that too to win the hearts and minds of the Afghans. Sounds to me that Afghanistan has big problems with its own citizens they need to figure out for themselves, and no amount of hand-holding by a powerful nation will help them out of the quagmire they are in. Afghanistan wasn't like South Korea. The Afghans were not super eager for our help, didn't ask for it, and didn't seem super eager to fight along side us to purge an oppressive regime (unlike the South Koreans).
- SerLava 5y ago
  We funded the child rapists. Gave child rapists guns. We had non child rapists around, but we gave arms and vehicles to child rapists which enabled them to take children and rape them. Then we ignored the fact that they were raping children. Go try looking up a sex offender in your area and doing the same sort of stuff. You will be held accountable, trust me.
- pokot0 5y ago
  Remind me again, why did the US deployed military in Afghanistan in the first place? I read so much about it and I still have no clue.
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    Punishment for unwise choice of house guests and unwillingness to turn over said house guests.
  - anonAndOn 5y ago
    I think it had something to do with this guy on CNN.[0] [0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orawG7vt68o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orawG7vt68o
    - pokot0 5y ago
least 5y ago
This is 100% spin. Bacha Bazi existed before, during, and after the Taliban's reign. Not only that, there were plenty of circumstances where the victims were charged with homosexuality crimes during the Taliban's reign instead of the perpetrators. It's deeply entrenched in Pashtun culture and has been a thing for centuries. I'm not suggesting this makes it an acceptable practice, but it does explain why it remains prevalent to date and is not a determinant factor in "winning the hearts and minds" of the Afghan people. Afghanistan is an extremely fractured nation where the central government does not have absolute control or ability to govern many of the provinces. Pashtuns are tribal and a lot of conflicts stem from Pashtunwali, essentially a code of conduct, which one of its core pillars is revenge. This creates never ending conflicts between tribes that have wronged each other. They're simply not united. Even during the Taliban's reign, they did not have complete control over the country. The Northern Alliance still controlled the Northern part of the country (which is the vector from which we begun operations with Special Forces assisting the Northern Alliance in defeating the Taliban). This, along with the racial tensions where the affluent in Afghanistan tend to be Tajiks and have wielded a lot of political power despite being a vast minority in the state are probably bigger contributors. All the Taliban need to do is convince the warlord of a given area and they will effective control that area.
- numair 5y ago
  Simple questions for you: you seem to have a very detailed opinion of the way the Afghan people think and behave. How many are within your group of friends with whom you communicate on a regular basis? How many have provided an opinion or insight on your analysis of their situation? Have you spent any time anywhere near the region?
  - remarkEon 5y ago
    I’ve witnessed this first hand and the comment you are replying to is accurately representing the history here.
- nate_meurer 5y ago
  Really, one hundred percent? Not just ninety-five? :) > [Bacha Bazi] is not a determinant factor in "winning the hearts and minds" of the Afghan people. This rather famous report written by the US military disagrees: By some accounts, the first incident that brought Mullah Omar and the Taliban to prominence in the eyes of the Pashtun people actually involved a dispute between two warlords over a particularly attractive halekon. This dispute took the pedophilia of the warlords to such an extreme that the locals themselves were repulsed and happy to embrace a force of reform. and: Even where the halekon tradition is not "celebrated "per se, it appears to underlie a number of Pashtun social structures, most notably the recruitment of very young "soldiers" by commanders of paramilitary groups. (This is so much true even today, that current law prohibits "beardless boys" living in Afghan military and police stations.) This in turn fits under the traditional warrior ethos which defines the role of men within Pashtun culture. This dynamic played a major role in the functioning of the warlord culture that preceded the rise of the Taliban in Afghanistan. From https://info.publicintelligence.net/HTT-PashtunSexuality.pdf https://info.publicintelligence.net/HTT-PashtunSexuality.pdf - "Pashtun Sexuality"
chrisjarvis 5y ago
Wow I was unaware of that. Its been a very long time since reading or watching something has made my blood boil like it is right now.
scarmig 5y ago
The idea that their opposition to bacha bazi played a significant role in the Taliban's appeal is exactly the kind of myopic American cultural reasoning that has led to this disaster in Afghanistan.

by numair 5y ago

spaced-out 5y ago

>yeah if you’re on the non-pedophile side You're assuming there's a non-pedophile side?

deleted 5y ago
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nate_meurer 5y ago
Yes, that's the Taliban. From https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/10/28/bacha-bazi-an-afghan-tragedy https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/10/28/bacha-bazi-an-afghan-tr...: "The Taliban had a deep aversion towards bacha bazi, outlawing the practice when they instituted strict nationwide sharia law. According to some accounts, including the hallmark Times of London article “Kandahar Comes out of the Closet” in 2002, one of the original provocations for the Taliban’s rise to power in the early 1990s was their outrage over pedophilia. Once they came to power, bacha bazi became taboo, and the men who still engaged in the practice did so in secret."
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 5y ago
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- notathrowaway3 5y ago
  No, it's not the Taliban. From https://www.reuters.com/article/us-afghanistan-rights-women-idUSKCN1B31PL https://www.reuters.com/article/us-afghanistan-rights-women-... "Fatima’s Taliban husband was so controlling that he refused to allow her to bathe and threatened to burn her face if she dared wear make up, suspicious that his 12-year-old Afghan wife was trying to make herself attractive to other men." “He became my lawful husband and began to rape me and beat me every single day for not consenting (to sex),” The Taliban being a pedophile network is well known.
  - nate_meurer 5y ago
    If I may reply to the first version of your comment, I agree with you that the Taliban are guilty of similarly revolting treatment of girls and women. I sympathize with the comment at the top of the thread that the Taliban are "utterly backwards, terrible people". So maybe I should say only that the Taliban are the "non-bacha-bazi" side.
    - notathrowaway3 5y ago
      >So maybe I should say only that the Taliban are the "non-bacha-bazi" side. Which is meaningless. Both sides are sexually abusing children. They are just as morally repugnant.
- spaced-out 5y ago
  If the Taliban is so opposed to pedophilia, why are there so many reported stories of girls as young as 12 being forced to "marry" men more than twice their age?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - notathrowaway5 5y ago
    @dang Is there a reason why all the comments pointing out the FACT that the Taliban also partakes in pedophilia are getting [flagged]? This is extremely suspicious. The comment I'm replying to is going to be flagged within minutes, as is this one.
    - dang 5y ago
      Maybe because you're posting them all, with several different accounts, and abusively deleting your comments and reposting them? Could you please stop creating accounts to break HN's guidelines with? We're trying for a different sort of site here.
      - notathrowaway6 5y ago
        I was deleting and reposting because they were getting insta-flagged. The comments weren't breaking site guidelines and we're relevant to the discussion. This is reddit level narrative shaping... I had no clue that kind of abusive flagging would make it's way to HN. I will make a permanent account at your request. Thank you.
        dang 5y ago
        The comments were certainly breaking the site guidelines! Would you mind reviewing them? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html We're trying to avoid flamewar here, and generally the use of the site for political and ideological battle, because it destroys the spirit of curiosity the forum is supposed to exist for.
notathrowaway4 5y ago
Leftists hate the US/West so much there are literally Taliban apologists here [flagging] any comments that go against the narrative. You're assumption is correct: there is no non-pedophile side. From https://www.reuters.com/article/us-afghanistan-rights-women-idUSKCN1B31PL https://www.reuters.com/article/us-afghanistan-rights-women-... "Fatima’s Taliban husband was so controlling that he refused to allow her to bathe and threatened to burn her face if she dared wear make up, suspicious that his 12-year-old Afghan wife was trying to make herself attractive to other men." “He became my lawful husband and began to rape me and beat me every single day for not consenting (to sex),” The Taliban being a pedophile network is well known.

umvi 5y ago

> if you are ever confused about how the Taliban won the hearts and minds of various groups within their country so quickly How is it America's fault that Afghan police officers are child molesters? I'm sure if Americans had punished them, the Taliban could have PR spun that too to win the hearts and minds of the Afghans. Sounds to me that Afghanistan has big problems with its own citizens they need to figure out for themselves, and no amount of hand-holding by a powerful nation will help them out of the quagmire they are in. Afghanistan wasn't like South Korea. The Afghans were not super eager for our help, didn't ask for it, and didn't seem super eager to fight along side us to purge an oppressive regime (unlike the South Koreans).

SerLava 5y ago
We funded the child rapists. Gave child rapists guns. We had non child rapists around, but we gave arms and vehicles to child rapists which enabled them to take children and rape them. Then we ignored the fact that they were raping children. Go try looking up a sex offender in your area and doing the same sort of stuff. You will be held accountable, trust me.
pokot0 5y ago
Remind me again, why did the US deployed military in Afghanistan in the first place? I read so much about it and I still have no clue.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  Punishment for unwise choice of house guests and unwillingness to turn over said house guests.
- anonAndOn 5y ago
  I think it had something to do with this guy on CNN.[0] [0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orawG7vt68o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orawG7vt68o
  - pokot0 5y ago

least 5y ago

This is 100% spin. Bacha Bazi existed before, during, and after the Taliban's reign. Not only that, there were plenty of circumstances where the victims were charged with homosexuality crimes during the Taliban's reign instead of the perpetrators. It's deeply entrenched in Pashtun culture and has been a thing for centuries. I'm not suggesting this makes it an acceptable practice, but it does explain why it remains prevalent to date and is not a determinant factor in "winning the hearts and minds" of the Afghan people. Afghanistan is an extremely fractured nation where the central government does not have absolute control or ability to govern many of the provinces. Pashtuns are tribal and a lot of conflicts stem from Pashtunwali, essentially a code of conduct, which one of its core pillars is revenge. This creates never ending conflicts between tribes that have wronged each other. They're simply not united. Even during the Taliban's reign, they did not have complete control over the country. The Northern Alliance still controlled the Northern part of the country (which is the vector from which we begun operations with Special Forces assisting the Northern Alliance in defeating the Taliban). This, along with the racial tensions where the affluent in Afghanistan tend to be Tajiks and have wielded a lot of political power despite being a vast minority in the state are probably bigger contributors. All the Taliban need to do is convince the warlord of a given area and they will effective control that area.

numair 5y ago
Simple questions for you: you seem to have a very detailed opinion of the way the Afghan people think and behave. How many are within your group of friends with whom you communicate on a regular basis? How many have provided an opinion or insight on your analysis of their situation? Have you spent any time anywhere near the region?
- remarkEon 5y ago
  I’ve witnessed this first hand and the comment you are replying to is accurately representing the history here.
nate_meurer 5y ago
Really, one hundred percent? Not just ninety-five? :) > [Bacha Bazi] is not a determinant factor in "winning the hearts and minds" of the Afghan people. This rather famous report written by the US military disagrees: By some accounts, the first incident that brought Mullah Omar and the Taliban to prominence in the eyes of the Pashtun people actually involved a dispute between two warlords over a particularly attractive halekon. This dispute took the pedophilia of the warlords to such an extreme that the locals themselves were repulsed and happy to embrace a force of reform. and: Even where the halekon tradition is not "celebrated "per se, it appears to underlie a number of Pashtun social structures, most notably the recruitment of very young "soldiers" by commanders of paramilitary groups. (This is so much true even today, that current law prohibits "beardless boys" living in Afghan military and police stations.) This in turn fits under the traditional warrior ethos which defines the role of men within Pashtun culture. This dynamic played a major role in the functioning of the warlord culture that preceded the rise of the Taliban in Afghanistan. From https://info.publicintelligence.net/HTT-PashtunSexuality.pdf https://info.publicintelligence.net/HTT-PashtunSexuality.pdf - "Pashtun Sexuality"

chrisjarvis 5y ago

Wow I was unaware of that. Its been a very long time since reading or watching something has made my blood boil like it is right now.

scarmig 5y ago

The idea that their opposition to bacha bazi played a significant role in the Taliban's appeal is exactly the kind of myopic American cultural reasoning that has led to this disaster in Afghanistan.