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Sadly, sometimes you have to fight your own battles and wars. Be they for independence, the right to vote, etc. (see Vietnam) If the dissenters leave and don’

by mc32 5y ago

Sadly, sometimes you have to fight your own battles and wars. Be they for independence, the right to vote, etc. (see Vietnam) If the dissenters leave and don’t put up a fight, who is going to do the right thing? Imagine if the resistance fighters of France or Benelux said instead, it’s fucking bad here, we gotta get out of town and let’s go to Argentina (or Angola, pick a place). That would have left the baddies without resistance. That’s what would happen if no one were to put up a fight. Yes it’s deaths, but the future might be worth it. If Americans can go die over there to protect civil society surely locals can organize a fight. Look at the VC of Vietnam, they could have said, shit, let’s just go to China or whatever and forget our homeland, but they didn’t. They fought tooth and nail with every breath, men women and children. I disagree with their choice of government but I admire their will for self determination and willingness to fight for what they thought was righteous.

baybal2 5y ago
US barely fought the Afghan war. The war was "Afghanised" very early on. The lion share of casualties in Afghanistan are the ANA troops.
- mc32 5y ago
  Then why does the withdrawal of US troops result in collapse? You have to be willing to fight for what you believe in.
  - alephnerd 5y ago
    Air Support - with the US withdrawal, there's been a decrease in that especially given the Aug 31st deadline. And India's not immediately interested in providing immediate air support as well (in order to try and make inroads with the Taliban, like all other nations in the region are) https://theprint.in/diplomacy/afghan-govt-wants-iaf-support-to-crush-taliban-as-fighting-worsens-across-the-country/712182/ https://theprint.in/diplomacy/afghan-govt-wants-iaf-support-... https://theprint.in/defence/will-pull-india-into-a-vortex-why-delhi-is-unlikely-to-heed-afghan-demand-for-air-support/712766/ https://theprint.in/defence/will-pull-india-into-a-vortex-wh...
  - baybal2 5y ago
    > Then why does the withdrawal of US troops result in collapse? Because US troop withdrawal is also a simultaneous porkbarrel withdrawal. This is something very obvious I am surprised nobody talks about. US "war funds" to the most Afghan establishment were basically loyalty bribes.
  - onepointsixC 5y ago
    The US cut and ran, forced the Afghan gov to release thousands of Taliban fighters, and cut off intel and logistic support. It wasn't just a withdrawal, we tied a weight around the Afghan gov, threw them in the river and told them to swim. At least with Saigon we managed to evacuate thousands. This admin hasn't even done that.
    - mc32 5y ago
      After 20 odd-years, I don't call this a cut-and-run. This has been a simmering topic since Obama took over --but of course, once in the white house, he changed tack.
- fhood 5y ago
  This is disingenuous. Unless I somehow completely missed something, US military support was absolutely crucial in fighting back the Taliban.
- ren_engineer 5y ago
  maybe not direct deaths but the Trillions of dollars that were thrown away in Afghanistan could have been spent improving and saving the lives of citizens in the United States I'm not sure there's been a more wasteful government action in human history than the US government in the Middle East
Thrymr 5y ago
Sometimes a superpower comes in and enlists you in their war in your country, and then leaves and hangs you out to dry. This happened to the Hmong in Laos during the Vietnam war as the CIA used them in their secret war across the border. Eventually thousands of them did settle in the US [0]. [0] https://www.mprnews.org/story/2019/10/25/how-a-former-cia-worker-helped-bring-the-hmong-to-america https://www.mprnews.org/story/2019/10/25/how-a-former-cia-wo...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
ud_0 5y ago
There is no meaningful dissent under this system. Resistance fighters are also not going to happen in the near future, because these need broad population support, at least regionally. I would argue that the Taliban grabbing control of the country is the people of Afghanistan fighting their own wars, as revolting as it is. I wonder though if what has been posted in another thread here had happened: if we either hadn't have gone in at all, or retreated immediately after. Maybe the passage of time would have softened up the Taliban government structure by now and there would be meaningful change brewing from within. In that sense, fighting their own wars could have helped the country. I've seen good cases being made for the theory that the people of Afghanistan would almost certainly be better off by now. As it stands today, they are reset to the very beginning of any possible road to democracy and human rights. Then again, there is no guarantee they'll ever choose that. I sort of see the point of those who argue that "we" need to be fine with that, too. However, this piece of news is more immediate and the suggestion made here relates to immediate relief for people in trouble. And in such cases, I can't ethically be in favor of letting anyone fight their own wars.
- mc32 5y ago
  To be terse, a population has to be ready to receive a system of government for it to work. It has to be organic and can take many decades to play out. Russia is an example. After centuries Empire and communism, they were in no way ready for democracy. Democracy may still work out some day in Russia, but not now. Also not now in Afghanistan. They need to work that out themselves.
  - baybal2 5y ago
    The Democracy also doesn't work in USA. Americans are too immature for the Democracy, so let's hand the country to Putin. People following your line of logic are so arrogant, and coarse.
- maccolgan 5y ago
  Why is there a extremely pervasive belief in the HN crowd that there is The Right Way and every country must immediately adopt it (and if they do not, they are making a mistake)? It just seems like Afghanistanis are self-determining to support Taliban anywhere outside of Kabul.

by mc32 5y ago

baybal2 5y ago

US barely fought the Afghan war. The war was "Afghanised" very early on. The lion share of casualties in Afghanistan are the ANA troops.

mc32 5y ago
Then why does the withdrawal of US troops result in collapse? You have to be willing to fight for what you believe in.
- alephnerd 5y ago
  Air Support - with the US withdrawal, there's been a decrease in that especially given the Aug 31st deadline. And India's not immediately interested in providing immediate air support as well (in order to try and make inroads with the Taliban, like all other nations in the region are) https://theprint.in/diplomacy/afghan-govt-wants-iaf-support-to-crush-taliban-as-fighting-worsens-across-the-country/712182/ https://theprint.in/diplomacy/afghan-govt-wants-iaf-support-... https://theprint.in/defence/will-pull-india-into-a-vortex-why-delhi-is-unlikely-to-heed-afghan-demand-for-air-support/712766/ https://theprint.in/defence/will-pull-india-into-a-vortex-wh...
- baybal2 5y ago
  > Then why does the withdrawal of US troops result in collapse? Because US troop withdrawal is also a simultaneous porkbarrel withdrawal. This is something very obvious I am surprised nobody talks about. US "war funds" to the most Afghan establishment were basically loyalty bribes.
- onepointsixC 5y ago
  The US cut and ran, forced the Afghan gov to release thousands of Taliban fighters, and cut off intel and logistic support. It wasn't just a withdrawal, we tied a weight around the Afghan gov, threw them in the river and told them to swim. At least with Saigon we managed to evacuate thousands. This admin hasn't even done that.
  - mc32 5y ago
    After 20 odd-years, I don't call this a cut-and-run. This has been a simmering topic since Obama took over --but of course, once in the white house, he changed tack.
fhood 5y ago
This is disingenuous. Unless I somehow completely missed something, US military support was absolutely crucial in fighting back the Taliban.
ren_engineer 5y ago
maybe not direct deaths but the Trillions of dollars that were thrown away in Afghanistan could have been spent improving and saving the lives of citizens in the United States I'm not sure there's been a more wasteful government action in human history than the US government in the Middle East

Thrymr 5y ago

Sometimes a superpower comes in and enlists you in their war in your country, and then leaves and hangs you out to dry. This happened to the Hmong in Laos during the Vietnam war as the CIA used them in their secret war across the border. Eventually thousands of them did settle in the US [0]. [0] https://www.mprnews.org/story/2019/10/25/how-a-former-cia-worker-helped-bring-the-hmong-to-america https://www.mprnews.org/story/2019/10/25/how-a-former-cia-wo...

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

ud_0 5y ago

There is no meaningful dissent under this system. Resistance fighters are also not going to happen in the near future, because these need broad population support, at least regionally. I would argue that the Taliban grabbing control of the country is the people of Afghanistan fighting their own wars, as revolting as it is. I wonder though if what has been posted in another thread here had happened: if we either hadn't have gone in at all, or retreated immediately after. Maybe the passage of time would have softened up the Taliban government structure by now and there would be meaningful change brewing from within. In that sense, fighting their own wars could have helped the country. I've seen good cases being made for the theory that the people of Afghanistan would almost certainly be better off by now. As it stands today, they are reset to the very beginning of any possible road to democracy and human rights. Then again, there is no guarantee they'll ever choose that. I sort of see the point of those who argue that "we" need to be fine with that, too. However, this piece of news is more immediate and the suggestion made here relates to immediate relief for people in trouble. And in such cases, I can't ethically be in favor of letting anyone fight their own wars.

mc32 5y ago
To be terse, a population has to be ready to receive a system of government for it to work. It has to be organic and can take many decades to play out. Russia is an example. After centuries Empire and communism, they were in no way ready for democracy. Democracy may still work out some day in Russia, but not now. Also not now in Afghanistan. They need to work that out themselves.
- baybal2 5y ago
  The Democracy also doesn't work in USA. Americans are too immature for the Democracy, so let's hand the country to Putin. People following your line of logic are so arrogant, and coarse.
maccolgan 5y ago
Why is there a extremely pervasive belief in the HN crowd that there is The Right Way and every country must immediately adopt it (and if they do not, they are making a mistake)? It just seems like Afghanistanis are self-determining to support Taliban anywhere outside of Kabul.